Episcopalian Church moving towards Unitarian Universalism?

[Contarini]

I was, for a few years, a participant with a local Unitarian Universalist (UU) community. I was at the time an atheist, and I was drawn towards their acceptance of atheists, theists or whatever-ists. Pretty much, my UU experience can be summed up in, “be whoever you are just don’t be an inconvenience to anyone else”.

Nearly a decade has gone by since then, where in that time I became a Catholic. Recently an Episcopalian Bishop addressed a group of us Catholics, telling us that the Episcopal Church loves us for who we are, and does not seek out a change in who we are. He also pointed out that within the Episcopal Church itself, the members of the clergy do not agree with each other and that is ok.

I’ve been thinking on this for a few weeks, have come to my own conclusions, and have a few questions, and appreciate any feedback particularly from the Episcopalian or UU POV.

• Not seeking a change in oneself, as a Christian, strikes me as a UU approach. Does Jesus not call us to die to ourselves? From a UU perspective, I could understand this to mean God accepts everyone for who they are and the dying to oneself means an idea that God, or any gods, or your socio/psychological understanding of the world, should be oriented towards letting people be.
• There is no absolute truth regarding God, gods, or no God, and therefore seeking the truth about God is really seeking the truth about humanity. Seeking a change in a person, persons or groups of persons, that is not towards this humanist ideology, is bad form. An inconvenience to someone, or a group of someones.

Is this the prevailing thought in the Episcopalian Church? If so it strikes me as Universalist and I see no difference between the two religions.

You’re over-generalizing from a statement addressed to Catholics to the hasty conclusion that Episcopalians don’t want anyone to change at all.

That being said, there is certainly a kind of “antinomianism” prevalent in the Episcopal Church today (ironically given the history of Anglican moralism), which says simply that God accepts everyone for who they are without asking them to change. That still isn’t the same as Unitarianism, though, which denies the Trinity and all the historic Christian doctrines. Antinomianism is unorthodox, but it proceeds from a basis of belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation. There are Episcopalians, like John Shelby Spong, whose theology is indistinct from Unitarianism. But they are not the majority, and in my opinion they are becoming fewer and less influential. Spong is retired and fairly elderly, and the younger clergy of my acquaintance are much more orthodox (in the sense of believing in basic creedal Christianity). I should also note that my characterization of much of Episcopalianism as antinomian would be contested by many folks, and that it certainly doesn’t apply to all Episcopalians by any means.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Was Spong ever excommunicated? He is the most prominent figure that comes to mind. But if you can find anyone like him in Orthodox, Oriental or Catholic Christianity please name them.

No one is disputing that the Catholic Church has much narrower doctrinal boundaries and much stricter discipline than the Episcopal Church (and the Orthodox and Oriental churches arguably even more so, but we don’t need to get into that debate). But the point is that the Episcopal Church does have doctrinal standards and also has clergy who violate them without being disciplined, both of which phenomena (though to a much lesser extent and degree) also exist in the Catholic Church. It is unfair in both cases to judge the entire institution by certain clergy, though it’s also legitimate–if you want to do that–to characterize both institutions in terms of the diversity in practice and not just by the official standards. The point is that the same standard should be used in both cases.

Edwin

 

[Muzhik]

Our cannons have not been changed at all and we don’t espouse belief in any Gods or God, but the one true God.

I should HOPE your “cannons” have been changed! If you ask me, they should be pointed at the Presbyterians. But maybe that’s just me.

Let’s hope your “canons” remain firmly planted in the Rock of Jesus!

 

[rakovsky]

If you became disillusioned with the main miracle claims of Christianity, wouldn’t you become a Unitarian?

That is, if you believed that extreme miracles like the virgin birth were next to impossible and that the early Christians sounded like a persecuted group of apocalyptic charismatics very open to making up stories and having mental confusion like visions, wouldn’t you choose Unitarianism as the next best candidate after Christianity?

 

[Contarini]

I was, for a few years, a participant with a local Unitarian Universalist (UU) community. I was at the time an atheist, and I was drawn towards their acceptance of atheists, theists or whatever-ists. Pretty much, my UU experience can be summed up in, “be whoever you are just don’t be an inconvenience to anyone else”.

Nearly a decade has gone by since then, where in that time I became a Catholic. Recently an Episcopalian Bishop addressed a group of us Catholics, telling us that the Episcopal Church loves us for who we are, and does not seek out a change in who we are. He also pointed out that within the Episcopal Church itself, the members of the clergy do not agree with each other and that is ok.

I’ve been thinking on this for a few weeks, have come to my own conclusions, and have a few questions, and appreciate any feedback particularly from the Episcopalian or UU POV.

• Not seeking a change in oneself, as a Christian, strikes me as a UU approach. Does Jesus not call us to die to ourselves? From a UU perspective, I could understand this to mean God accepts everyone for who they are and the dying to oneself means an idea that God, or any gods, or your socio/psychological understanding of the world, should be oriented towards letting people be.
• There is no absolute truth regarding God, gods, or no God, and therefore seeking the truth about God is really seeking the truth about humanity. Seeking a change in a person, persons or groups of persons, that is not towards this humanist ideology, is bad form. An inconvenience to someone, or a group of someones.

Is this the prevailing thought in the Episcopalian Church? If so it strikes me as Universalist and I see no difference between the two religions.

There are Episcopalians who could be called “UU with vestments”–John Shelby Spong, retired bishop of Newark, is the most famous example. And since Episcopalians are pretty slow to discipline people for doctrinal reasons, these perspectives are de facto tolerated at least within sections of the Episcopal Church.

But they do not speak for the Episcopal Church as a whole, and the trajectory is very much away from that kind of liberalism and toward a more creedally robust but socially liberal kind of religion.

Younger priests, in my experience, generally have a strong commitment to the Creeds and the core claims of Christianity and are not interested in a mushy religion that is no different from anything else. Episcopalians say the Nicene Creed (with the exception of a few very liberal parishes) and have a liturgy full of references to the Incarnation, the death and resurrection of Jesus, etc. We read just as much Scripture in the Liturgy as Catholics do, and many devout Episcopalians use the daily lectionary of Morning and Evening Prayer, which exposes them to far more Scripture.

Walk into an Episcopal liturgy with the possible exception of a few extreme examples, and it will be very clear that you are in a church that believes in Scripture and the Creeds–no way could the typical Episcopal parish be confused for a UU congregation.

Edwin

 

[cmodrmac]

The OP has posted an interesting question -theologically I do not see any movement that would remotely bring the Episcopal Church in the USA any way near the “theology” of the Unitarians -

our faith is grounded in the Creeds our Traditions and the Book of Common Prayer which includes a catechism-

HOWEVER THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME OF OUR CLERGY AND LAITY HAVE LED TO THE
question that was posted-it is clearly in regards to issues of human sexuality that has led to an erosion of our PRACTICE not our theology -

we have a few (and probably more than a few) eccentric Priests who really have pushed on our theological pillars -interestingly 2 of these were former RC Priests -Fox and Crossan -it is hard to tell in which direction our new Presiding Bishop will take us-

The movement of many of the conservatives to the Anglican Church in North America has impoverished our norms of behavior .

so where goes the Episcopal Church? Many of our Churches do far more burials than baptisms -the Boomers are aging -we will see -but not towards the Unitarians of that I am sure

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Remember also that the Episcopal Church is a liturgical church. The Eucharist, the music, Evensong, the Book of Common Prayer. The last time I was in a UU church for a service, it was pretty generic - nice hymns, a good sermon - but I doubt a person who loves the liturgies of TEC would be happy with that style of worship.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The OP has posted an interesting question -theologically I do not see any movement that would remotely bring the Episcopal Church in the USA any way near the “theology” of the Unitarians -

our faith is grounded in the Creeds our Traditions and the Book of Common Prayer which includes a catechism-

HOWEVER THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME OF OUR CLERGY AND LAITY HAVE LED TO THE
question that was posted-it is clearly in regards to issues of human sexuality that has led to an erosion of our PRACTICE not our theology -

we have a few (and probably more than a few) eccentric Priests who really have pushed on our theological pillars -interestingly 2 of these were former RC Priests -Fox and Crossan -it is hard to tell in which direction our new Presiding Bishop will take us-

The movement of many of the conservatives to the Anglican Church in North America has impoverished our norms of behavior .

so where goes the Episcopal Church? Many of our Churches do far more burials than baptisms -the Boomers are aging -we will see -but not towards the Unitarians of that I am sure

One of the things I love about TEC and for that matter some of the mainline-liberal denominations is their inclusiveness along with open communion. And actually from what I’ve seen and been told the Episcopal diocese in my area is doing rather well. So maybe those that wanted to leave have done so. And I’m wondering if where it goes is close to where it already is now. A home for Christians with orthodox views such as on the Trinity. But a home as well for those more progressive on some of the social issues.

 

[commenter]

Remember also that the Episcopal Church is a liturgical church. The Eucharist, the music, Evensong, the Book of Common Prayer. The last time I was in a UU church for a service, it was pretty generic - nice hymns, a good sermon - but I doubt a person who loves the liturgies of TEC would be happy with that style of worship.

There isn’t any “Official” liturgy for UU churches. It is whatever the local congregation wants. They can have music written for masses, or any kind of historic music or art, if that provides the desired “spiritual” experience. Some have Gothic, spires, etc. They use candles even now, when electricity is available.

The reason the Episcopal Church has had certain liturgical practices is that they believe (believed) in supernatural realities, and dogmas, not primarily because they “like” altars, consecrations, genuflecting, etc, etc. There are Episcopal churches in my city that call themselves “Anglo Catholic” but also support legal abortion, etc. They are culturally high church. They still like the art, music, the experience of high church, but not the Catholic dogmatic and supernatural reality that originated it.

I can easily see most of the TEC fitting into Unitarian Universalism. For many it has already happened, in effect.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The reason the Episcopal Church has had certain liturgical practices is that they believe (believed) in supernatural realities, and dogmas, not primarily because they “like” altars, consecrations, genuflecting, etc, etc. There are Episcopal churches in my city that call themselves “Anglo Catholic” but also support legal abortion, etc. They are culturally high church. They still like the art, music, the experience of high church, but not the Catholic dogmatic and supernatural reality that originated it.

I can easily see most of the TEC fitting into Unitarian Universalism. For many it has already happened, in effect.

Anglicans will always use the Book of Common Prayer, with the Holy Eucharist at its core. UU is not even close to being a liturgical church. Perhaps you are confusing people’s political and social beliefs with styles of worship.

 

[boar2roar]

Episcopalians are a very liberal church and have been for quite some time. Given that they have similarities with other progressive religions like unitarian. The COE is following in their footsteps in some vain hope that liberalizing along with the rest of society will somehow make them more relevant when there is no proof of that, even with their sister church here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Remember also that the Episcopal Church is a liturgical church. The Eucharist, the music, Evensong, the Book of Common Prayer. The last time I was in a UU church for a service, it was pretty generic - nice hymns, a good sermon - but I doubt a person who loves the liturgies of TEC would be happy with that style of worship.

Good point, thanks. The UUs have rites that are common to everyone, such as the lighting of the chalice.

OT, but, when the UUs invited the pagans of the congregation to give everyone a faerie blessing…I was done with UU. I didn’t go to it but heard later that it was a “beautiful” ritual.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I highly doubt Unitarianism will ever take hold in Anglicanism/Episcopalianism. Belief in the Holy Trinity is pretty well embedded in the culture, even following the abandonment of the sacraments four hundred years ago. Thus neither the Episcopal Church in the United States, nor the worldwide Anglican Communion could be described as “Unitarian”.

The Episcopal Church prides itself in being very inclusive of even those with doubts regarding Christianity, however they are a small part of the Anglican Communion. As a whole, the Anglicans still cling to an episcopal model of the church, (one with a formal hierarchy of bishops) but accept as peers many non-Anglican Protestants who hold similar beliefs. I don’t think it is accurate then to describe the whole communion as “Universalist”, as some Protestants are excluded from their model of the Church.

Well stated.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If you became disillusioned with the main miracle claims of Christianity, wouldn’t you become a Unitarian?

That is, if you believed that extreme miracles like the virgin birth were next to impossible and that the early Christians sounded like a persecuted group of apocalyptic charismatics very open to making up stories and having mental confusion like visions, wouldn’t you choose Unitarianism as the next best candidate after Christianity?

I knew one woman who was a self described Christian in the congregation I went to. All others were atheists, agnostics, or pagans.

If I were not Christian, I wouldn’t go back to the UUs, but the UU church in my area has many former Mormons, who are completely disillusioned with religious claims but still want a religious type of community to belong to. Religion without religion, is the appeal. I don’t think that appeal is unique to former Mormons.

Also, there was one family, and the pastor that were from generational UU families, everyone else was a convert to the UU Church. Most came from Mormon backgrounds. Including myself, but I never converted.

I just attended and participated in some of their activities. Including marching with them in a gay pride parade! I wouldn’t do that again, but I don’t regret that I did back then. It opened my eyes to the bigotry against a group of people. I watched a grown man in his fifties, from our group, break down and cry when he read a “God hates $&@s” sign, being held by someone on the sidewalk. I will never forget that. But at the same time the overt debauchery of some of the parade entries was wayyy over the top, and I wondered why people would bring their children to watch such an adult oriented parade. Anyway, that was a digression.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Episcopalians are a very liberal church and have been for quite some time. Given that they have similarities with other progressive religions like unitarian. The COE is following in their footsteps in some vain hope that liberalizing along with the rest of society will somehow make them more relevant when there is no proof of that, even with their sister church here.

Sadly there are some conservative Episcopalians - parishoners, priests and bishops who still remain faithful to the Episcopal church hoping and praying it will reverse course and find its right path again. so not all Episcopaliana support the liberal progressive agenda it adopted the last 40 - 50 yesrs. some have left to become Catholic, others left to become Anglican and probably some just stopped going to church all together. The more liberal the Episcopal church becomes the harder it will be for any conservatives to remain.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think some in the episcopalian church on this forum are misunderstanding the question. Its not whether or not the UU or the EC are the same now but whether or not the EC is heading in the direction of the UU. For my part, perhaps the EC won’t go as far as UU, but it does seem to be heading in that liberal a direction, in which more and more of Christianity is being redefined, made acceptable for the modern man.

But perhaps this is a more pertinent question. Can any Episcopalian say with a reasonable amount of certainty that their church will recover from its errors? Or if not that, stay the same as it is now?

 

[Murmurs]

I think some in the episcopalian church on this forum are misunderstanding the question. Its not whether or not the UU or the EC are the same now but whether or not the EC is heading in the direction of the UU. For my part, perhaps the EC won’t go as far as UU, but it does seem to be heading in that liberal a direction, in which more and more of Christianity is being redefined, made acceptable for the modern man.

But perhaps this is a more pertinent question. Can any Episcopalian say with a reasonable amount of certainty that their church will recover from its errors? Or if not that, stay the same as it is now?

I think the way you phrase that, IgnatianPhilo, is very telling indeed about the EC (and the Church of England over here in the land of the colonial mistress )

…made acceptable for the modern man.

The issue that all churches are needing to confront, including the RCC, is how traditional teaching fits within an increasingly nontraditional culture (with regard things like marriage, or anything else - although plenty of changes like yanking society away from the subjection of women, are of course entirely good).

I suppose the EC/CofE/etc wouldn’t see themselves as “redefining” Christianity, so much as “broadening” it (it’s a fine line, I know!). So from their internal reference, teaching isn’t so much changing as getting vaguer.

I highly doubt that the EC will in a liturgical sense end up like UU, and I think even the most liberally-minded (doctrinally speaking) parishoners or priests in the EC would have limits to broadening key teachings eg regarding the Holy Trinity.

For Anglicans (which is to say those in the EC/CofE/etc), it’s entirely possible to be culturally and liturgically very conservative, to the extent that some Anglo-Catholic churches I’ve attended in the UK are “more Catholic than the Catholics”, and socially progressive/liberal; certainly with regards some issues like the ordination of women (the recent combustion in the CofE regarding the elevation of women to the episcopacy notwithstanding).

What the Anglican Communion - or the provinces in the western world - is/are doing, is to decouple theological from social teaching (thus “Jesus would have approved of same-sex marriage if He’d been here on Earth today” etc). As a former Anglican myself, I still see the huge appeal in this approach, to be honest. Inclusiveness is, as I am sure the most traditionally minded conservative Roman Catholic can appreciate, very enticing indeed. On the other hand (and this is why I’m now a Catholic!) once you start down that path (with the best of intentions), you end up with the doctrinal mess the Anglican Communion now propounds.

 

[commenter]

It helps to remember that the Unitarians, and Universalists, combined several decades ago, did not reach their present theological position overnight. Separately, people in both traditions were originally Christians. They questioned the reality or importance of different aspects of the Trinity, or other doctrines. Little by little, they attached different meanings to Christian terms; the “Holy Spirit” was gradually redefined as referring to humans being “spiritual”. “God the Father” was gradually re-understood as a kind of general Providence, which evolved into the idea that we all have to care for each other.

There was no moment when Trinitarians were cast out of the church - you can still be a trinitarian (hey, if that works for you), and be in the UU church, even today. Of course individuals understand different things by the “trinity”, and that’s considered very good. Unitarians never denied the Bible is inspired, they consider it “inspiring” (to many), just as other classic literature, poetry, music, etc.

In the TEC, and other Mainline, some preachers talk about “The Creator, the Savior, and the Sanctifier”. I sometimes read liberal books or articles that refer to “God”; (never any pronoun) only in a very general, vague sense; to “Jesus”; (but no hint of divinity); and “the Spirit” (only in the general sense of human enthusiasm). They are starting to drop the word “savior”, or to redefine it, so belief in Jesus “saves” us from selfishness, for instance; not Jesus saving us, but **our belief **in Jesus saving us. In the redefined trinity, none of the 3 Persons acts at all.

If someone is open minded about morality, they are considered to have “the spirit”; if they are dogmatic, they are labelled as in need of renewal; they lack “the spirit”. The New Age movement, and extreme Left social justice movements glued to the media, push the trend towards Relativism, away from dogmas.

TEC** is** moving towards UU; more in one diocese than another, more in one seminary, less in that parish over there, closer in 2015 than in 2000. It won’t be announced in the newspaper when it happens; it has happened to some extent already; will happen to more people, as the elderly die off and young people grow up in a UU American culture. They won’t notice anything different, they will keep the Episcopal name, but it will mean something else. They’ll keep referring to “Jesus” but that word will mean different things from what Episcopalians in 1960 meant by it. Essentially, TEC will be defined by the media; and Jesus defined by the media too.

 

[GKC]

It helps to remember that the Unitarians, and Universalists, combined several decades ago, did not reach their present theological position overnight. Separately, people in both traditions were originally Christians. They questioned the reality or importance of different aspects of the Trinity, or other doctrines. Little by little, they attached different meanings to Christian terms; the “Holy Spirit” was gradually redefined as referring to humans being “spiritual”. “God the Father” was gradually re-understood as a kind of general Providence, which evolved into the idea that we all have to care for each other.

There was no moment when Trinitarians were cast out of the church - you can still be a trinitarian (hey, if that works for you), and be in the UU church, even today. Of course individuals understand different things by the “trinity”, and that’s considered very good. Unitarians never denied the Bible is inspired, they consider it “inspiring” (to many), just as other classic literature, poetry, music, etc.

In the TEC, and other Mainline, some preachers talk about “The Creator, the Savior, and the Sanctifier”. I sometimes read liberal books or articles that refer to “God”; (never any pronoun) only in a very general, vague sense; to “Jesus”; (but no hint of divinity); and “the Spirit” (only in the general sense of human enthusiasm). They are starting to drop the word “savior”, or to redefine it, so belief in Jesus “saves” us from selfishness, for instance; not Jesus saving us, but **our belief **in Jesus saving us. In the redefined trinity, none of the 3 Persons acts at all.

If someone is open minded about morality, they are considered to have “the spirit”; if they are dogmatic, they are labelled as in need of renewal; they lack “the spirit”. The New Age movement, and extreme Left social justice movements glued to the media, push the trend towards Relativism, away from dogmas.

TEC** is** moving towards UU; more in one diocese than another, more in one seminary, less in that parish over there, closer in 2015 than in 2000. It won’t be announced in the newspaper when it happens; it has happened to some extent already; will happen to more people, as the elderly die off and young people grow up in a UU American culture. They won’t notice anything different, they will keep the Episcopal name, but it will mean something else. They’ll keep referring to “Jesus” but that word will mean different things from what Episcopalians in 1960 meant by it. Essentially, TEC will be defined by the media; and Jesus defined by the media too.

Last para matches my observations.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The more liberal the Episcopal church becomes the harder it will be for any conservatives to remain.

That’s how I came to think about the Catholic Church but in reverse. That the more conservative the CC has become, the harder it is for liberals to remain.