Episcopalian Considering Conversion

[kparlet]

BhmEpiscopalian:

I have gotten almost nothing out of my visits to the Catholic Church. My movement to the Catholic faith is driven only by Apologists, EWTN, and sites like catholic.com. I cannot find the same convictions in my local churches. I just I having problems converting to a faith that I am not spiritually awaken every Sunday. What should I do?

I feel for you and I completely understand where you are coming from, but we must remember…the purpose of going to Church is to worship and honor God, not for us to be entertained to the point that we feel warm fuzzies all the time. The validity of the Mass is not contigent on your feeling spiritually awaken every Sunday.

Good luck on your journey!

 

[Lee]

Peace-bwu:

I am a cradle Catholic and went to the same traditional parish (which I still love), until I married my airforce husband nine years ago, and have since been to Catholic Churches all over the country. At first I felt awkward because I was accustomed to a georgeous choir and gothic architecture, not to mention I missed my parish family.
I tried several parishes in the area and started missing Mass a little too often… Until I was pregnant with my first child and realized that I was missing Christ more than my home parish.
I went to Mass at the Base chapel when there was no choir and a little old lady got up and sang out of tune with no music. I saw her as the widow who gave out of poverty, she gave more than a whole abundant choir because she was willing to give to a parish whose piano player had to PCS to Germany. I realized at that moment, it didn’t matter what the music was like, or whether the homily was done by a gifted orator, what mattered most was that the people around me were there, the Body of Christ was there to celebrate Mass. I asked myself why I attend Mass. Was it to be uplifted and entertained, or was I there to make the commitment to Christ, to recieve the Sacraments, to offer my own life, and recieve the True Presence of Jesus Christ, just as he commanded, under the humble appearance of Bread and wine.
I thought about Mass being celebrated in the middle of a battle field, or hidden in a basement in some communist country. At that moment I realized I was there to be a member of the Body of Christ, and that I would never let anything keep me from the sacraments and the Eucharist itself. I offered it all up and my faith and relationship with Christ became stronger. I started asking myself how I could give my talents to make that base Parish community even better.
I recommend looking for a Catholic Parish you like better, but just remember the importance of Mass doesn’t rest in the human priest, he is just trying to live his vocation like the rest of us. See what you can do to make the Parish community more friendly and close. I am so thankful for converts who bring new life into the community. Maybe God is calling you to do that. When you feel discouraged, offer it up to Christ for Catholics in Countries who are not free to Celebrate Mass and have to risk their lives to take communion.
Right now I am in a real gem of a parish, with 4 awesome choirs and a huge, very close community with a school and great programs, but I don’t consider the Mass at the Base chapel I mentioned any less valid because Christ was present in the Eucharist.

God Bless you, I will pray for you tonight,
PS I am also a big fan of Scott Hahn!

What a beautiful testimony to what the Mass is all about. This is why its a sin to miss Mass on Sunday. You are called to worship God, but to also give testimony to your faith by your presence at Mass. Loved your points. The Mass isnt always pretty, but your not there for yourself(to gain pleasure) but to worship God and show his face to others. Thank you for your story. I loved it.

 

[meep]

I think being moved is less important than being fed–something that can happen through monotone homilies or even Masses without homilies (which, once upon a time were not the exception). There are many wonderful priests who give homilies which are emotionally, intellectually, or spiritually uplifting. But in the cases where you do not have access to such preaching, it might help to consider that God sometimes wishes us to experience spiritual “deserts” or even the “dark nights of the soul” St. John of the Cross and others describe–these periods where we are without emotional consolations can be tremendous times of growth, where we learn to embrace God even when our emotions are silent and our souls feel dead. Dry preaching is certainly a miserable desert to cross, but also an opportunity to not depend on others stirring us up to the level of devotion to God we ought to have.

 

[gez722]

Bhm,

I can’t help but think of the words of John the Baptist in John 3:30, “He must increase; I must decrease”. The Mass is really all about the Real Presence of Our Lord. Even though I agree with you about poor singing and homilies, maybe that could help us. Perhaps it could help us focus our attention on what is happening on the altar. At the time of the consecration, the bread and wine truly becomes the Body and Blood of Our Lord. No bad singing or poor homilies will ever change that! I will keep you in my prayers.

God Bless,
Gary

 

[AquinasXVI]

Friends:

We often forget one of the most important part of Mass: the Offertory. This is the point in which all of our work, suffering, gifts, our very being is offered to God when the priest accepts the bread and wine. This seemingly passive moment deceives us because it is done with so much austerity. At this point, we should offer it all up to Him. Then, upon consecration our unity with Christ happens…what we offer to him he takes as his own and then becomes Him. After that we receive Him. This is utter intimacy.

There is no amount of perfection of the choir or the skill of the homily come remotely close to this. I totally understand the disappointment. But I think the depth of the Holy Eucharist will be missed if we have to rely on the bells and smells to make it more “meaningful.” It is all there wrapped in mystery in the chalice and the paten.

in XT.

 

[rjs1]

BhmEpiscopalian:

I am an Episcopalian that is seriously considering conversion to the Catholic faith. I have read several books by Scott Hahn, David Currie, and Marcus Grodi. Theologically, I am in full agreement with the Catholic faith. I have even spoken with a priest and I am preparing for an RCIA class. I have prayfully considered this move. But for the past four months my wife, children, and myself have attend Mass. I have probably heard homilies from a dozen priests and not one of them have “moved me”. I truly miss the sermons from the Episcopal Church. The other aspect is music. I am used to hearing a 40+ member choir accompanied by a large pipe organ. The Catholic Church has at best 6 members in the choir.

I have gotten almost nothing out of my visits to the Catholic Church. My movement to the Catholic faith is driven only by Apologists, EWTN, and sites like catholic.com. I cannot find the same convictions in my local churches. I just I having problems converting to a faith that I am not spiritually awaken every Sunday. What should I do?

Boy oh boy have you resurrected memories for me of my process of conversion. If you take many of the local Catholic Churches you might never convert. In too many of them the homilies are shallow and almost non religious, the music is almost secular and of a bad standard and the liturgy is almost like attending a local sport’s game where reverance is unknown and any sense of awe of God is laughable.

However, this is NOT the essential nature of God’s Church. These are weaknesses that even now our Pope is starting to deal with.

What matters is that the Catholic Church has, in its official teachings, remained constantly for two thousand years the ONLY church that teaches God’s truth about divorce, abortion, contraception, euthanasia, homosexualty, stem cell research, the ordination of women, the sacraments, the priesthood, salvation, the Scriptures and in fact, the nature of God Himself.

Jesus founded ONE Church - the Catholic Church, the ONLY Church that can trace its origin back to Christ Himself.

Look past the weaknesses you see in the local parishes to the deeper reality. Take the step and ultimately you will not regret it.

 

[twiztedseraph]

BhmEpiscopalian:

I am an Episcopalian that is seriously considering conversion to the Catholic faith. I have read several books by Scott Hahn, David Currie, and Marcus Grodi. Theologically, I am in full agreement with the Catholic faith. I have even spoken with a priest and I am preparing for an RCIA class. I have prayfully considered this move. But for the past four months my wife, children, and myself have attend Mass. I have probably heard homilies from a dozen priests and not one of them have “moved me”. I truly miss the sermons from the Episcopal Church. The other aspect is music. I am used to hearing a 40+ member choir accompanied by a large pipe organ. The Catholic Church has at best 6 members in the choir.

I have gotten almost nothing out of my visits to the Catholic Church. My movement to the Catholic faith is driven only by Apologists, EWTN, and sites like catholic.com. I cannot find the same convictions in my local churches. I just I having problems converting to a faith that I am not spiritually awaken every Sunday. What should I do?

When you meet your Maker, He’s not going to ask you about the stirring music and orations you’ve heard in your Episcopal Community, He’s not even going to ask about the convictions of others. He’s going to ask you, why if your in complete agreement with the Church, would you stay out of it?

I mean objectively speaking, this situation is, to the letter the very thing talked about in the Catechism and other Church documents. “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it (Vatican II, Lumen gentium, 14; Catechism #846)” I mean isn’t that basically it, you agree and recognize the Church, but your kept out of it for trivial reasons.

Pray for enlightenment dear Brother. By the way, welcome home! Also, you didn’t take communion did you? Because you shouldn’t until your received fully and only after a sacramental Confession.

 

[Matt16_18]

Writer:

… I think that you have to concentrate on the theology issue. Is it The Church, or not?

Yes, that is the question. The Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ. The Episcopal “Church” is an institution founded by a man.

 

[mercygate]

Welcome, Bhm. I, too, am a former Episcopalian. When I was a guest on Marcus Grodi’s “Coming Home” program, a friend, who attends the breathtakingly magnificent Church of the Advent in Boston, called in and asked how the transition was for me from the Anglo-Catholic experience to the Roman Catholic experience of liturgy. I could have killed him.

The answer is that this is a ***profound *culture shock, and it takes a long time to get past it. It’s been 5 years for me and I still miss the reverence and beauty of High Church Anglican liturgy.

But if you want the authenticity – then you just have to standit. I suspect it may be a very meritorious form of penance. And it does a lot for your humility. That said, I recommend finding a parish that relatively respectful and decent in its liturgical offering.

What diocese are you in?

 

[mercygate]

To ease the transition, maybe there is an Anglican Use Parish near you? This is a provision from Cardinal Ratizinger and Pope JP II to allow Anglican Use to congregations which have come into the Church en masse. The Eucharistic canon is a translation of the Roman Canon done by Miles Coverdale (if you can believe it) – a virulent Protestant who lost his Anglican bishopric because he was too vitriolic in his anti-Catholicism, even for the Anglicans . . .

 

[gardenswithkids]

Thank you for posting this thread. I read it from a different perspective. I know traditional Catholics who want to see our parish music program turned into the type described: fabulous choirs and grand pipe organ music. (We have a long way to go before that is achieved–if ever.) The argument is that this is more “Catholic” and adheres to Church documents that say the pipe organ holds a place of primacy in the Latin Rite.

What I find ironic in this posting is that what some traditional, faithful Roman Catholics at my parish argue is more “Catholic”, can not be found in most Catholic parishes. The original posters love for the same kind of music that they enjoy may actually be one of the things that keeps him Protestant!

 

[Tonks40]

I find it funny, as a choral singer, that the sacred choral music we sing were originally done with the liturgy of the Mass in mind. Stuff like “Agnus Dei” or “Gloria” or “Ave Maria” (Schubert and others) are regularly performed in secular settings. It’s grand stuff, and I can’t help but think, “I wonder if the audience actually knows what we’re singing?”

Could be a great opportunity for evangalization!

 

[Randy2]

And that is the problem. At the theoretical level the catholic Church is appealing but at the practical day-to-day parish level that church simply does not exist. As you are finding out. Most parishes in the US seem to be affirming parishes and that is basically the Episcopal Church with th name Catholic on it.

I too could not embrace this so i looked into Eastern Orthodoxy and found the same theoretical appeal but also the practical at the parish level. Beautiful liturgy, orthodox theology. And half the members of the Orthodox church near me are former catholics. I suggest you look into Orthodoxy. The quiet story is that many Catholics are doing the same and embracing this litttle understood pillar of Christianity.

 

[Verbum]

Hi bhm,

Your is a common complaint. Also the fact that there is not so much interaction between the faithful, social interaction that is.

But think about it. If you really believe that Christ becomes present on the altar, humanity and divinity body, blood and soul,. what else matters? When I was little, some people used to go to an early mass, so they could go to communion. (There was a 24 hour fast rule). Then EVERYBODY went to the High Mass at 10:30, with choir and incense, two dozen altar boys in the sanctuary. But no communion. What a solemn way to miss the point!

This morning, I wen to my little parish chapel that holds about 100 people. Congregation singing, but no choir, no incense, no huge candle, no procession. But the great gift of communion.

MInd you I sometimes give myself the treat of a a solemn high mass. Notre-Dame Church in Montreal has an 11 clock solemn high mass, with Gregorian chant polyphony, one of the greatest organs in the hemisphere and an organist to to match. You can do the same. Possibly your cathedral church has those ceremonies. And enquire about Benedictine monasteries, famous for their great performance of Gregorian Chant.

Verbum

 

[gardenswithkids]

Randy2:

And that is the problem. At the theoretical level the catholic Church is appealing but at the practical day-to-day parish level that church simply does not exist.

I thought about what you wrote here while at Mass this morning. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand–and I don’t think He was speaking only theoretically.

I attend Mass with eyes and ears of faith. I believe the Angel choirs do sing along with the “Holy, Holy, Holy”, and I suspect they sound better than the best earthly choir. I believe that Jesus can make the deaf hear–and I believe that He will one day heal the tone deaf. I believe He will some day perfect all our imperfections. Sure it would be nice if we didn’t have to wait for heaven to experience that. But in the meantime, my faith in Jesus tells me the Kingdom of God is at hand at any Catholic Mass.

 

[meep]

Randy2:

At the theoretical level the catholic Church is appealing but at the practical day-to-day parish level that church simply does not exist.

That’s a rather bold statement–but not a new one by any means. While it’s true that members of the Body of Christ here in this life are imperfect (and thus will not have a perfect liturgy, in practice), there are many beautiful and reverent Catholic liturgies–amongst the many liturgies which are less so. The Catholic Church embraces over a billion diverse members on Earth, and correspondingly has many diverse and beautiful liturgies–Roman (both the Tridentine and the properly-implemented Novus Ordo), Maronite, Byzantine, etc.

In the US it may be true that many parishes have Episcopal overtones to their liturgies; however, that can say only so much about a universal church, and a faith which consists of more than just liturgy.

The quiet story is that many Catholics are doing the same and embracing this litttle understood pillar of Christianity.

That’s funny… I keep meeting people who went the opposite direction.

 

[MEP]

I too have experienced atrocious music at the Mass, and I’ve heard some pretty flat homilies (we had one priest who found a way to mention a Peanuts cartoon strip in every single homily he delivered, it was like an obsession). What can I say other than priests and music directors are human? I’m sure there’s an Episcopalian out there somewhere who delivers lousy sermons and an Episcopalian church that plays awful music.

When I first moved to where I’m living now, I started looking for a new parish to call “home”. My first option was a Cathedral seat of the archdiocese. I tried it for a couple weeks and I loved the pipe organ and talented lectors and the use of a very orthodox order of the mass, but it’s rather distant from my apartment and the homilies left me feeling kind of flat (it didn’t help that the priests there all have thick accents and the acoustics make it hard to hear what they’re saying).

I then found a parish that was about 5 minutes away from my apartment. The parish seemed really nice and the pastor delivers some great (long) homilies. But they don’t say/sing a gloria at all during the mass. The music is easily the worst I’ve ever heard inside or outside of a church (think of an Abba concert played in a public restroom… now think of something far worse). The congregation doesn’t seem to know the order of the mass at all because you constantly see individuals “doing their own thing” rather than participating in the mass as it is intended. And they do that thing with their hands whenever the priest offers a blessing, you know holding your hands upward in the air like a lazy heil hitler salute. I hate that.

So I kept searching until I found The Church of the Risen Christ (Archdiocese of Denver). What a fantastic parish. Both of the priests (yes, two priests in a single parish. It’s almost unheard of in this day and age) deliver great homilies. One of them delivers simply the best homilies I’ve ever heard, and very passionately too. He obviously loves his vocation. The building is a magnificent modernist structure, and before you cradle Catholics start rolling your eyes, this church thankfully avoids all the mistakes that were common in church architecture of the 60s and 70s. It’s really a beautiful interior space and totally appropriate to solemn contemplation of the eucharist. The music isn’t the best I’ve heard (I love those pipe organs which this church lacks), but it is very good and those in the music ministry clearly care deeply about doing the job right for the sake of the congregation and not just for themselves.

I can concentrate on the mass (which I find very moving nowadays, though it bored me to tears when I was younger, another cradle Catholic who didn’t appreciate what he had), and I also get a great “sermon” to boot. All I had to do was find the right parish.

The point of my rambling tale is this. Different people are moved by different things. It depends a lot on what you are personally used to (as I’m sure you’ve already figured out). If the church you are attending does not grab you by the heart strings and lift you to your feet, that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with the Catholic church or your intentions to convert. It simply means that the liturgy as it is performed there doesn’t float your boat. Try a different parish if you can. Or even try a Tridentine mass if one is available.

The people at the other parishes are being moved too. It’s just that, due to their upbringing and conditioning, they are moved by things that don’t move me so much. One of the great things about the Catholic church is the fact that certain aspects of the liturgy can be altered to fit regional custom so that it all has the same meaning to the people participating no matter where they are from. Since America has people from everywhere and every viewpoint you can think of, that means that American parishes can be very different from each other even if they’re only a few blocks apart from each other.

It’s true that Catholic liturgy in the US sometimes allows things like folk music and clown masses (sigh), but it’s equally true that the age old traditions and solemn beauty of the church can always be found somewhere if you look for them. Don’t lose heart. I’m sure you’ll find a good home parish too.

 

[Christus_Rex]

Well, there’s two things you can do:

1. Make those changes! Set up a choir, get people involved etc!
2. Find a church which already has those things!

Simple as that.

Michael

 

[Trad_Julia]

This OP has expressed my own disappointment in Mass (coming from High Episcopal services) perfectly. I am totally blind, so when I go to mass, all I can pick up by hearing is what I take away from such. I am also a choral singer (alto), and hearing the popular, lyrically flat, folk song-styled music at many parishes makes me cringe and essentially tune the hymns etc. out. The homilies I’ve heard in person have the same effect, unfortunately. Five to 8 minutes of unrelated thoughts and stories which are tangentially relevant to the Gospel or the readings, priests rambling from a few scrawled notes and going off into streams of consciousness I find difficult to follow, I might go on.
As for all the theological underpinnings, I’m someone who thinks mainly along very literal, tangible lines. To put it another way, all the talk of Christ’s real presence, the Holy Spirit, offering things up to God, etc. means nothing unless it’s reinforced by something equally beautiful and wonderful that I can hear, feel, understand and ponder. Flat, slapped together homilies and barely literate music simply cannot do that.
To anyone who’s similarly dismayed, there are wonderful masses on EWTN which I prefer over those at both parishes I’ve attended. Many of their hymns are the same ones I was used to singing in the Episcopal congregation, their sermons are well-presented, usually quite long, and always thoughtful.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I understand the OP’s frustration. I have seen a tremendous disonnect between the Catholic Church “out in the field” grass roots and the Catholic Church of EWTN/Catholic Answers. If one only heard EWTN and Catholic Answers, the Church sounds like the greatest earth-shattering, mind-bending, awesome spectacle and event one could ever attend. When you go to a Catholic Church in my area there are many people not singing, babies crying, priests giving mundane sermons, overworked priests who look (understandably!) exhausted, extraordinary ministers giving blessings to children and adults (!!!), people holding hands during the “Our Father,” “Amazing Grace” being sung (sigh!), people dressed irreverently, kids misbehaving, and an overall weak liturgy language-wise coupled with a missal that says UNIDOS EN CRISTO in a huge font at the top and "United in Christ at the bottom. They import priests from India who can barely speak English and the parishoners are struggling to understand their own liturgy.

So there is a disconnect. It is what it is. My wife and I muddle through. Our old Anglican liturgy was beautiful, kids well-mannered, childcare provided, great sermons, wonderful music, and all-English Book of Common Prayer, and a great coffee hour afterward. The Sunday experience was more vibrant, meaningful, and had good fellowship.

My wife and I often miss our old Anglican parish but muddle through because of the theology of the Church. But I do tire of the “suck it up” mentality and the guilt trips laid on people like the OP saying, “God isn’t going to care if you heard a good sermon on judgment day!” that sort of comment isn’t helpful at all. The OP deserves a good sermon that motivates just like we all do here. Sermons motivate, help us to think in a different light, give us incite, and get us determined to grow as Christians. Sometimes sermons seem indeed neglected in our parishes. And the liturgy needs to be reformed along with so many abuses like I mentioned. So often times we seem to be saying to folks like the OP, “look, just put up with a lousy liturgy and a bunch of abuse and a lousy sermon because of the theology. Suck it up!” Why can’t we walk and chew gum? Catholicism can harbor the truth and deliver a better product to the faithful. We can do both. Accepting less is silly. We should all do our parts to not be happy with status quo and try to knock off this holding hands at Mass business, and all the other silly corruptions.

I wish the OP good luck in exploring Catholicism and God has blessed him indeed leading him out of the Episcopal Church! That denomination is rife with corruption, false teachings, women’s ordination, the gay agenda, and a host of other social justice mumbo-jumbo that is contrary to tradition, scripture, reason, and morality in general. May God bless him!