Episcopalian Eucharist?

[brianwalden]

I just feel stunned sometimes by the attitude of my fellow Catholics towards non-Catholic Christians; like they are somehow sub-standard in God’s eyes. They follow and worship Christ just like we do, but just in somewhat different ways. Does this make them any less sincere and less in God’s eyes, just because their method of worship is different than ours? Unfortunately, they feel the same towards us. It’s sad.

You are correct in being troubled by this. No one is sub-standard in God’s eyes. Some ideas, actions, denominations, religions, etc. are; but people are not. Your absolutely right that we should not look down on any person because of their beliefs.

This is not a question of sincerity of belief. Only God can judge of how sincere a person is. And sincerity of belief does not make that belief correct. Knowing that our separated brethren are sincere in their efforts to follow Christ and that they are loved by God, we owe it to them to try to show them the Truth and lead them into the fullness of faith.

And you seem to think that the communion issue is about worship. It is not. It’s about the lack of full communion of faith. How can you celebrate communion when communion does not exist? It also has to do with the fact that protestants have shunned apostolic succession and therefore no longer have a valid priesthood to confect the sacrament.

And here lies the big problem, everybody feels they are right and everybody else is wrong.

This is a big problem. The Catholic position is that the Church is right and everyone else is right to the extent that they’re in agreement with the Church. Again, try to look at individuals more than denominations - this goes for Catholics as well as Protestants. Most Christians are more right than wrong, but we still must strive for full unity. While we should always defend the Truth and help others to understand it, you are very much right in being concerned that we often forget to do so in charitable manner.

 

[bilop]

There is nothing wrong if your opinion mirrors “Catholic Policy”, if thats how you truly feel.

I just feel stunned sometimes by the attitude of my fellow Catholics towards non-Catholic Christians; like they are somehow sub-standard in God’s eyes. They follow and worship Christ just like we do, but just in somewhat different ways. Does this make them any less sincere and less in God’s eyes, just because their method of worship is different than ours? Unfortunately, they feel the same towards us. It’s sad.

We fear for them, that, without access to the sacraments, they will have a much harder time achieving salvation.

A Catholic/Orthodox can be a pretty rotten person all their life, but as long as they confess before they die with honest contrition, and receive absolution from a valid Priest, they can be assured of salvation. Even if the contrition is very imperfect, motivated only by fear of Hell.

Other Christians must rely on not-comitting mortal sins, or achieving prefect contrition, much higher bars to cross.

REAL Ecumenism is trying to get more people back into the real Church so they will be saved. We recognize other Christian communities (non-Orthodox) as they are b/c we see their lack of essential features and we fear for the salvation of our spearated brethren.

FALSE Ecumenism, says “I’m all right, you’re all right” out of fear of offending someone. If you really believe in Christ and His Church, you should prefer to offend millions than to lose one soul.

God Bless

 

[emeraldcoast]

While you maybe can make a case here of rejecting Church teaching, rejecting Christ himself is a bit of a stretch. He was participating in a Christian ritual in a Christian Church. I believe Christ is present in more than just the Catholic Church. Nobody was rejecting Christ in this situation.

May I step in here as a sister in Christ and as an Episcopalian?

As Episcopalians we open our Communion to all that are baptized. We believe that the invitation comes from Christ and it is not ours to decide who is welcomed and who is not, unlike the Catholic teachings. We are a community of believers and not a club and welcome all while trying to model the love and inclusivity of Jesus. Jesus is PRESENT at our Eucharist and He is present in ALL His followers.

Originally Posted by ThrowNoStones
“So they’re like an amputated leg - still part of the Body, but just not attached? If so, I can live with that.”

After reading this post about the Episcopal Church being “the amputed leg” remark, I had to respond. Open the Bible to Luke 14: 13-14a and see what Jesus expected you to do at your banquet. Christian Hospitality–too bad it seems that some have forgotten how to put it to good “works”…

If the rest of us are so lame, why aren’t we invited to the banquet table of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church instead of being told to remain in the pews? And yes, I do believe in the REAL presence of the Eucharist.

May the Peace of Christ be with you all!

 

[Rolltide]

If the rest of us are so lame, why aren’t we invited to the banquet table of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church instead of being told to remain in the pews? And yes, I do believe in the REAL presence of the Eucharist.

You may be surprised to learn that Catholics are so careful about the reception of the Eucharist, that not only is it forbidden for most non-Catholics not receive the Eucharist, but even many CATHOLICS are not eligible to receive. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that NO ONE may receive the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin. Anyone in a state of mortal sin, even a Catholic, is expected to abstain from Holy Communion. Catholics, however, have the benefit of confession (as do the Orthodox), but Protestants do not. Under Catholic belief, although there would be a chance that someone’s mortal sins might be forgiven through the process of an Act of Perfect Contrition, but since most Protestants don’t even know what that is, and because they can’t go to confession, then there would be no easy way to remove their mortal sin.

 

[jmcrae]

Did you even read my post?

It was an act of friendship on a Saturday afternoon.

It’s not an “act of friendship,” it’s a Sacrament of Initiation. If you are not Episcopalian and not planning to practice that faith, then you should not Initiate yourself into their church.

 

[LilyM]

May I step in here as a sister in Christ and as an Episcopalian?

As Episcopalians we open our Communion to all that are baptized. We believe that the invitation comes from Christ and it is not ours to decide who is welcomed and who is not, unlike the Catholic teachings. We are a community of believers and not a club and welcome all while trying to model the love and inclusivity of Jesus. Jesus is PRESENT at our Eucharist and He is present in ALL His followers.

Originally Posted by ThrowNoStones
“So they’re like an amputated leg - still part of the Body, but just not attached? If so, I can live with that.”

After reading this post about the Episcopal Church being “the amputed leg” remark, I had to respond. Open the Bible to Luke 14: 13-14a and see what Jesus expected you to do at your banquet. Christian Hospitality–too bad it seems that some have forgotten how to put it to good “works”…

If the rest of us are so lame, why aren’t we invited to the banquet table of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church instead of being told to remain in the pews? And yes, I do believe in the REAL presence of the Eucharist.

May the Peace of Christ be with you all!

God bless for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

It’s not OUR banquet, though - not yours or your church’s, or my church’s for that matter - it’s Christ’s own banquet. It is for HIM, as He instructs us through the church which He has authorised to bind and loose heaven in His name, to determine who can and can’t receive.

And if you read your gospels, He excluded people all sorts. How about the foolish virgins? How about those who weren’t ‘wearing the proper wedding garment’? Those who failed in their duty to feed the poor, clothe the naked and so on?

What about those who, as St Paul says, fail to properly discern the Body and Blood and so eat and drink unworthily to their own condemnation? Surely this doesn’t simply refer to the unbaptised eating and drinking, or he’d simply say ‘don’t let the unbaptised receive’, but it refers to those without proper understanding of what the Eucharist is. Surely one can be baptised and still fail to discern, otherwise every baptised person would have exactly the same understanding of the Eucharist.

Do you believe in Transubstantiation (that the substance of the bread and wine is completely replaced by the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ)? Do you belive that sacramental confession of serious sins to a priest is necessary to prepare you to worthily partake?

If not, then you lack a true discernment of the Body and Blood - as attested to by the Early Church Fathers who were handed the teaching by the Apostles themselves.

 

[jmcrae]

Um, how about Christianity as a whole being his body? Here is a way to illustrate it. The trunk being Catholicism, and the arms, legs, head, and so on being the other Christian denominations. As a whole, we are all one body. Christianity.

No, not at all. The Catholic Church is the organization that Christ founded, with the Apostles as its first leaders, and Peter as their Chief Shepherd.

The Protestant churches came along much later - Lutheranism was established by Martin Luther in 1524, and the others following on after that. Episcopalianism is actually one of the later ones that got started the United States as an offshoot of Anglicanism (founded in 1534 by Henry Tudor).

Of all the different forms of Christianity, the only one that was actually founded by Christ, Himself is the Catholic Church.

 

[PaulinVA]

May I step in here as a sister in Christ and as an Episcopalian?

As Episcopalians we open our Communion to all that are baptized. We believe that the invitation comes from Christ and it is not ours to decide who is welcomed and who is not, unlike the Catholic teachings. We are a community of believers and not a club and welcome all while trying to model the love and inclusivity of Jesus. Jesus is PRESENT at our Eucharist and He is present in ALL His followers.

Why would you want to publicly proclaim yourself to be in communion with the Catholic Church, when you are not? This is what we believe, and that is why we practice closed communion. It is for your sake and for ours.

If you want to receive Catholic sacraments, in fact if you believe that there are seven sacraments and not only two, then by all means approach a priest at you local Catholic parish to begin instruction for entering the Church.

If, however, you believe the 39 Articles, including Article 22, which rejects purgatory, or Article 28, which rejects Transubstantiation, or Article 32, which allows married priests, just to name a few, you are not really in communion with the Catholic Church. That is why we have closed Communion. It would be wrong for you to pretend belief in something you, in fact, do not believe.

 

[jmcrae]

Ah, but I’m sure the Episcopalians believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them as well, and who is to say thats not true?

How about the Holy Spirit? Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church only (the Episcopalians didn’t exist yet in Acts 2, which was in 33 AD) - whatever is spoken by the Catholic Church is coming from the Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

You may be surprised to learn that Catholics are so careful about the reception of the Eucharist, that not only is it forbidden for most non-Catholics not receive the Eucharist, but even many CATHOLICS are not eligible to receive. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that NO ONE may receive the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin. Anyone in a state of mortal sin, even a Catholic, is expected to abstain from Holy Communion. Catholics, however, have the benefit of confession (as do the Orthodox), but Protestants do not. Under Catholic belief, although there would be a chance that someone’s mortal sins might be forgiven through the process of an Act of Perfect Contrition, but since most Protestants don’t even know what that is, and because they can’t go to confession, then there would be no easy way to remove their mortal sin.

Let me add to this excellent outline by pointing out that mortal sin is only one of many issues. There is also the intention to be a Catholic and to live the Catholic life. There is also the proper disposition, including fasting for at least one hour before receiving, being in an attentive and prayerful frame of mind, and having been educated in the basic principles of the Sacrament, and having made one’s official First Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.

Just as an example, we have a group of seven year olds receiving instruction in First Holy Communion these next few weeks - none of these seven year olds is guilty of mortal sin, but neither are they yet properly disposed to receive Holy Communion, since they have not yet completed their instructions for First Holy Communion.

 

[emeraldcoast]

How about the Holy Spirit? Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church only (the Episcopalians didn’t exist yet in Acts 2, which was in 33 AD) - whatever is spoken by the Catholic Church is coming from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus gave the Holy Spirt to ALL Christians, not just the Catholic Church. No where in the Bible does it say “Christians excluding Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc…” If “we were first, therefore we are right,” is the best defense Catholics can put up, I as an outsider can only assume that the tenants of the Church’s beliefs in this area are too weak to defend any other way - any eight year old can use that argument.

You guys are welcome to limit participation in your sacraments as you see fit, but calling everyone else unworthy is a cop-out, not born out by any facts - outside of your narrow teachings. Most ancestors of non-Catholics left the Catholic Church because of the abusive practices of its leadership (selling indulgences, the Inquisition, corruption, etc.) and many non-Catholics now won’t join because of the refusal of the Catholic Church to recognize the value inherent in other Christian traditions. Are your closed-minded and haughty attitudes making you effective witnesses for your faith? Nope - I sure want no part of it. Are they preventing many of your members from taking advantage of the gifts of family planning and aids to conception? Obviously not- think about how many Catholics use birth control and IVF. Are they helping the Church retain its members? One source at this link
infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/27234/
states “About one-third of those raised Catholic have left the church, but membership remains stable because of the high numbers of Catholic immigrants.” At the end, you have to ask - how are your exclusionary practices are working out for your Church? Are they helping or hurting?

Everyone (especially we Episcopalians) has some dirty laundry in their faiths, but to excuse or justify your own smelly socks by totally disregarding the value of the other faiths does nothing to convince the rest of us of the correctness of your tenants. Like I said, any child can play the “I’m first so I’m right” game. First doesn’t mean right - all tenants of all faiths must be examined on their merits and how they contribute to advancing God’s Good News in a very secular world.

Christ be with you!

 

[LilyM]

Jesus gave the Holy Spirt to ALL Christians, not just the Catholic Church. No where in the Bible does it say “Christians excluding Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc…” If “we were first, therefore we are right,” is the best defense Catholics can put up, I as an outsider can only assume that the tenants of the Church’s beliefs in this area are too weak to defend any other way - any eight year old can use that argument.

You guys are welcome to limit participation in your sacraments as you see fit, but calling everyone else unworthy is a cop-out, not born out by any facts - outside of your narrow teachings. Most ancestors of non-Catholics left the Catholic Church because of the abusive practices of its leadership (selling indulgences, the Inquisition, corruption, etc.) and many non-Catholics now won’t join because of the refusal of the Catholic Church to recognize the value inherent in other Christian traditions. Are your closed-minded and haughty attitudes making you effective witnesses for your faith? Nope - I sure want no part of it. Are they preventing many of your members from taking advantage of the gifts of family planning and aids to conception? Obviously not- think about how many Catholics use birth control and IVF. Are they helping the Church retain its members? One source at this link
infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/27234/
states “About one-third of those raised Catholic have left the church, but membership remains stable because of the high numbers of Catholic immigrants.” At the end, you have to ask - how are your exclusionary practices are working out for your Church? Are they helping or hurting?

Everyone (especially we Episcopalians) has some dirty laundry in their faiths, but to excuse or justify your own smelly socks by totally disregarding the value of the other faiths does nothing to convince the rest of us of the correctness of your tenants. Like I said, any child can play the “I’m first so I’m right” game. First doesn’t mean right - all tenants of all faiths must be examined on their merits and how they contribute to advancing God’s Good News in a very secular world.

Christ be with you!

How on earth is closed communion (which clearly St Paul himself advocated, and the Orthodox and some Lutherans among others also practice) a means of excusing or justifying the evils Catholics have wrongly and mistakenly done in Christ’s name or the name of the Church???

The wrongs you speak of have no relation at all to closed communion.

Read your Bible - Jesus promised to found one church, not many mutually contradictory ones (and don’t pretend the myriad permutations of Christianity can possibly all be true, all equally inspired by the Holy Spirit and all teaching equally true doctrines).

And He promised that that one church alone would prevail against the gates of Hell, not everyone who calls Him Lord.

You have a problem with exclusivity then your problem isn’t with the Catholic church, rather with Him who founded it and authorised the Apostles to bind and loose heaven in His name

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus gave the Holy Spirt to ALL Christians, not just the Catholic Church.

Sorry, but the Catholic Church was the only one in existence back then.

No where in the Bible does it say “Christians excluding Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc…” If “we were first, therefore we are right,”

Not “we were first” since the Jews were first; we came second. But rather, Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit, and did not give it to anyone else.

It’s got nothing to do with being “unworthy” - you could be pure as the driven snow, but it makes no nevermind if you’re not in the Church that Christ actually founded. The excuses for not being a member are legion, and some of them may even seem valid, but in the end, either you are with Christ in His Church, or you are not.

This doesn’t make you a sinner, and it doesn’t make you unworthy; all it makes you is a non-member. If you want it, then you have to join up. The question is, how bad do you want it? Not that bad? Okay, then. No big deal.

 

[mikew262]

Mike, rejecting Church teaching is rejecting Christ.

In this case, you may be rejecting Church teaching, but not Christ (IMO). Participating in a fully Christian ceremony, is not rejecting Christ, again, in my opinion.

 

[mikew262]

It’s not an “act of friendship,” it’s a Sacrament of Initiation. If you are not Episcopalian and not planning to practice that faith, then you should not Initiate yourself into their church.

Oh brother!

 

[jmcrae]

Oh brother!

That’s your best shot? (It’s “sister” by the way. )

 

[Rolltide]

Jesus gave the Holy Spirt to ALL Christians, not just the Catholic Church.

I agree. In fact, I wouldn’t even limit it to Christians! I’d say God desires all human beings to have access to the Holy Spirit. Some Christians, however, have a more accurate understanding of Christianity than others.

No where in the Bible does it say “Christians excluding Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc…” If “we were first, therefore we are right,” is the best defense Catholics can put up, I as an outsider can only assume that the tenants of the Church’s beliefs in this area are too weak to defend any other way - any eight year old can use that argument.

We have already given you a multitude of very valid reasons. We can go through the Biblical reasons again if you like, as well as the numerous prohibitions that are clear historically in the early Church as stated by the Early Church Fathers.

You guys are welcome to limit participation in your sacraments as you see fit, but calling everyone else unworthy is a cop-out, not born out by any facts - outside of your narrow teachings.

The Orthodox Church is even more strict than the Catholic Church. They actually will question all unfamiliar faces before a service to ensure that they are Orthodox, and if they are not, they will (politely) police them to make sure that they don’t receive. Many Lutherans also practice closed Communion. Among Christian denominations, almost 70% practice closed communion. I guess it must be borne out SOMEHOW, if the VAST majority of Christians follow this teaching which comes straight from St. Paul…

Most ancestors of non-Catholics left the Catholic Church because of the abusive practices of its leadership (selling indulgences, the Inquisition, corruption, etc.) and many non-Catholics now won’t join because of the refusal of the Catholic Church to recognize the value inherent in other Christian traditions. Are your closed-minded and haughty attitudes making you effective witnesses for your faith? Nope - I sure want no part of it. Are they preventing many of your members from taking advantage of the gifts of family planning and aids to conception? Obviously not- think about how many Catholics use birth control and IVF. Are they helping the Church retain its members? One source at this link
infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/27234/
states “About one-third of those raised Catholic have left the church, but membership remains stable because of the high numbers of Catholic immigrants.” At the end, you have to ask - how are your exclusionary practices are working out for your Church? Are they helping or hurting?

The Pew Report IS fascinating and important, isn’t it? It’s important to realize where we are successful and failing as Christians. However, I would be quick to point out that if you actually download the full version, not the newspaper article, the Pew Report also states that Episcopalians are bleeding members at THREE TIMES the rate of Catholics. The Episcopalians are also rapidly approaching the point of schism, and where is it that many of these traditionalists are fleeing to? The Catholic Church! In fact, the Traditional Anglican Communion, a group of 400,000 (and not strictly Episcopalian, I know) has just petitioned the Pope for readmission into the Catholic Church. The Assyrian Church of the East is near the point of reunification as well. I’m not saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t have it’s own problems, but things are actually MUCH more dire right now in the high mainline Protestant denominations.

The Pew Report also states that almost 10% of Catholics are converts (about 2.5% of Americans, or 7.8 million people). Of the Americans that are former Catholics, many did not leave for another denomination, but simply became secularists. You really have to look at the details within the report.

Everyone (especially we Episcopalians) has some dirty laundry in their faiths, but to excuse or justify your own smelly socks by totally disregarding the value of the other faiths does nothing to convince the rest of us of the correctness of your tenants. Like I said, any child can play the “I’m first so I’m right” game. First doesn’t mean right - all tenants of all faiths must be examined on their merits and how they contribute to advancing God’s Good News in a very secular world.

We DON’T totally disregard the value of other faiths. We fully acknowledge that there is the possibility of non-Catholics making it into heaven, and that many of them are good people. They just have a more limited, and sometimes flawed, understanding of the faith.

 

[mikew262]

No, not at all. The Catholic Church is the organization that Christ founded, with the Apostles as its first leaders, and Peter as their Chief Shepherd.

The Protestant churches came along much later - Lutheranism was established by Martin Luther in 1524, and the others following on after that. Episcopalianism is actually one of the later ones that got started the United States as an offshoot of Anglicanism (founded in 1534 by Henry Tudor).

Of all the different forms of Christianity, the only one that was actually founded by Christ, Himself is the Catholic Church.

With all due respect, I totally disagree with your perspective. Yes the Protestant Churches came later, no argument. Does that make any less Christian? No. They are just as much part of the body of Christ (Christianity) as we are.

 

[Rolltide]

With all due respect, I totally disagree with your perspective. Yes the Protestant Churches came later, no argument. Does that make any less Christian? No. They are just as much part of the body of Christ (Christianity) as we are.

Are Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses as much a part of the body of Christianity as either Catholics or Protestants are? Are they less Christian than us? Are they even Christian?

 

[mikew262]

Are Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses as much a part of the body of Christianity as either Catholics or Protestants are? Are they less Christian than us? Are they even Christian?

I’m not versed enough in their teachings to offer an opinion, but I do know the Mormons certainly acknowledge Christ, the Witnesses not so sure. However, I try not to judge them .