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mikew262
Guest
Sorry, I’m just stunned by some of your statements. Its time for dinner now, I’ll try to do better later.That’s your best shot?(It’s “sister” by the way.
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jmcrae
Guest
How so? (By magic? Or what?)
I don’t see any organizational connection between the Church that Christ founded and the Protestant churches. In fact, quite the opposite - the early Protestants went out of their way to sever all organizational ties with the Church, in order to establish their own independently-operated and non-affliliated organizations.
They have a historical connection, in the sense that what they broke away from was, in fact, the Catholic Church, which means that they have Catholic ancestors, and borrow a great many ideas from the Catholic faith. However, this is no different than someone learning a business, and then breaking away from the original business to establish their own. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that the break-away guy was still in the employ of the original business man, or that he could stroll into the employee’s room any time he wants to and help himself to the coffee and donuts.
They also have a Sacramental connection by means of the Sacrament of Baptism, but they certainly don’t share in all of the Sacraments; nor do they even wish to.
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Rolltide
Guest
Well, the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be Christian, but…
- They totally reject the Trinity, claiming that Jesus is actually the Archangel Michael.
- Only 144,000 people that have ever been born will end up in heaven, although many more have a chance at experiencing a kind of “limbo” on earth where they will be happy, but not see God
- They believe Jesus died on a torture stake, not a cross
- They believe the celebration of any holiday, including Easter and Christmas, is completely forbidden, as they are pagan
- They believe that all other Christians are doomed to die (I don’t want to use the word hell, as they don’t believe in that, per se.)
- They use their own version of the Bible, the New World Translation, which intentionally writes out any reference to the Trinity
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wjdukes
Guest
OK, probably a little dangerous stepping in here, but as an Episcopalian (though one considering making the swim) I thought I’d try to clarify a couple of things. Caveat: the Episcopal church is in a high state of screwy-ness at the moment, so if I say “Episcopalians believe X” that means, more or less, that the Prayer Book and official documents say X and I believe it but if you ask someone in the pews they may have never heard of that and would disagree vehemently.
First of all, many of the arguments have focused on the requirement of valid apostolic priesthood for the Eucharist. Episcopalians believe in the requirement of apostolic succession and a validly ordained priest for a valid Eucharist as well (remember the caveat). The difference between Catholics and Episcopalians on apostolic succession is not primarily a question of theology, but a question of fact. Episcopalians believe that the Church of England and succeeding Anglican Churches did in fact preserve apostolic succession, Catholics believe they did not. So it’s fine to say that as a Catholic you can’t take communion in an Episcopal church because they don’t have valid sacraments, but it’s not quite right to say you can’t take communion in an Episcopal Church because they don’t even believe apostolic succession is necessary.
Second, some talked about the requirement of being in a state of grace and Catholics and Orthodox having confession to help with that. Episcopalians actually have confession as well, it’s just not commonly used (again, the caveat: if you ask a typical Episcopalian they might tell you we don’t have confession, but if you look in the Prayer Book it’s there). I’ve heard the phrase “All can, some should, none must” applied to confession in the Episcopal church. I personally think it’s a good idea and I personally think it’s not such a great idea to take communion when you’re not sure about being in a state of grace, but that’s just my opinion.
Third, Episcopalians have pretty widely differing beliefs about what the Eucharist actually is. High Church/Anglo-Catholics believe in transubstantiation or something pretty near to it, Low Church/Evangelicals might believe its a mere memorial or Christ is spiritually present. Broad Church/Liberals might think anything or nothing at all. That might be a pretty good reason in and of itself to have second or third thoughts about receiving the Eucharist in an Episcopal Church if you’re Catholic.
Just trying to clarify the facts a little on this one, I’ll leave the actual Catholics to debate the rightness/wrongness.
First of all, many of the arguments have focused on the requirement of valid apostolic priesthood for the Eucharist. Episcopalians believe in the requirement of apostolic succession and a validly ordained priest for a valid Eucharist as well (remember the caveat). The difference between Catholics and Episcopalians on apostolic succession is not primarily a question of theology, but a question of fact. Episcopalians believe that the Church of England and succeeding Anglican Churches did in fact preserve apostolic succession, Catholics believe they did not. So it’s fine to say that as a Catholic you can’t take communion in an Episcopal church because they don’t have valid sacraments, but it’s not quite right to say you can’t take communion in an Episcopal Church because they don’t even believe apostolic succession is necessary.
Second, some talked about the requirement of being in a state of grace and Catholics and Orthodox having confession to help with that. Episcopalians actually have confession as well, it’s just not commonly used (again, the caveat: if you ask a typical Episcopalian they might tell you we don’t have confession, but if you look in the Prayer Book it’s there). I’ve heard the phrase “All can, some should, none must” applied to confession in the Episcopal church. I personally think it’s a good idea and I personally think it’s not such a great idea to take communion when you’re not sure about being in a state of grace, but that’s just my opinion.
Third, Episcopalians have pretty widely differing beliefs about what the Eucharist actually is. High Church/Anglo-Catholics believe in transubstantiation or something pretty near to it, Low Church/Evangelicals might believe its a mere memorial or Christ is spiritually present. Broad Church/Liberals might think anything or nothing at all. That might be a pretty good reason in and of itself to have second or third thoughts about receiving the Eucharist in an Episcopal Church if you’re Catholic.
Just trying to clarify the facts a little on this one, I’ll leave the actual Catholics to debate the rightness/wrongness.
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LilyM
Guest
Thanks for the great explanation. The only thing I’d point out is that Catholics and Orthodox don’t just believe confession ‘helps’ us in terms of being in a state of grace, rather we believe that in cases of mortal (serious) sin we totally sever our relationship with God (hence the term ‘mortal’), and that it is an absolute necessity to go to Confession, assuming you’re in a situation where it is available to you, to restore that relationship.
Short of extraordinary circumstances such as danger of death, a Catholic or Orthodox cannot worthily receive Communion with unconfessed mortal sins on their soul.
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mikew262
Guest
Its very simple, they all are followers of Christ. To deny that, is too deny the obvious. All followers of Christ belong to the same body.
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mikew262
Guest
Again, I don’t go along with their theology, but I try not to judge, that is someones else’s job. If they are not on the right path, then they will have to answer for it some day (as we all will).
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jmcrae
Guest
In every way except for joining His Church and being obedient to any of His commandments, of course!
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mikew262
Guest
Ah, but many consider either their own church, “the Church”, or Christianity as a whole as “his Church”, and I believe most, if not all, strive to follow the commandants.In every way except for joining His Church and being obedient to any of His commandments, of course!
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jmcrae
Guest
Which is exactly why we can’t receive Holy Communion with them. They don’t even know we exist.
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