Episcopalian meltdown

[crai7]

An extremely sad story. Congregations ejected by their own church, after having worked for generations to pay for the buildings, they lose court cases against the leadership who were sly enough to get them to sign over the buildings decades ago. Now these congregations are humiliated into begging for time from the new building owners, or have to make do with temporary spaces. The Episcopalians are not going to last much longer if this self-destructive behaviour goes on. This is why it is essential for local congregations - who pay for these buildings in the first place - to never hand over title deeds.

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Home-Page-News-and-Views/Why-is-the-Episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx?p=1

 

[ComplineSanFran]

An extremely sad story. Congregations ejected by their own church, after having worked for generations to pay for the buildings, they lose court cases against the leadership who were sly enough to get them to sign over the buildings decades ago. Now these congregations are humiliated into begging for time from the new building owners, or have to make do with temporary spaces. The Episcopalians are not going to last much longer if this self-destructive behaviour goes on. This is why it is essential for local congregations - who pay for these buildings in the first place - to never hand over title deeds.

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Home-Page-News-and-Views/Why-is-the-Episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx?p=1

Well, not quite. I can’t find a date for the article, but my guess it’s about four or five years old, probably from the time of the 2012 General Convention. And it is written from a conservative perspective who appears to be quite despondent over the usual points of dispute.

The concern you raised, however, about the ownership of the church buildings in cases where congregations have left the denomination has been pretty much determined. They are not congregational and self-owned. They belong to the Diocese as Episcopal churches.

I think the general attitude of the writer is a bit dramatic. The church is holding on, as are other denominations, dealing with concerns that face us all. Five years on and we are still here.

 

[Padres1969]

An extremely sad story. Congregations ejected by their own church, after having worked for generations to pay for the buildings, they lose court cases against the leadership who were sly enough to get them to sign over the buildings decades ago. Now these congregations are humiliated into begging for time from the new building owners, or have to make do with temporary spaces. The Episcopalians are not going to last much longer if this self-destructive behaviour goes on. This is why it is essential for local congregations - who pay for these buildings in the first place - to never hand over title deeds.

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Home-Page-News-and-Views/Why-is-the-Episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx?p=1

You do realize that article is well over 4 years old right?

Episcopal Church is still here and at least in my neck of the woods not doing too badly. At least no worse than Catholicism and mainline Protestantism.

Also when reading an article, consider the source. Beliefnet was sold by Fox to a pair of Evangelical Christian mouthpieces back in 2010. So of course that informs their agenda and their “reporting” which would be decidedly anti-mainline protestant, and in particular more “liberal” churches such as ELCA, UCC and TEC.

 

[crai7]

The concern you raised, however, about the ownership of the church buildings in cases where congregations have left the denomination has been pretty much determined. They are not congregational and self-owned. They belong to the Diocese as Episcopal churches.

QUOTE]

Yup the courts have decided in favour of TEC rather than individual congregations; but that is exactly my concern. Congregations pay the bills, and fund building programmes over decades, only to be ripped off by the hierarchy.

 

[GKC]

Well, not quite. I can’t find a date for the article, but my guess it’s about four or five years old, probably from the time of the 2012 General Convention. And it is written from a conservative perspective who appears to be quite despondent over the usual points of dispute.

The concern you raised, however, about the ownership of the church buildings in cases where congregations have left the denomination has been pretty much determined. They are not congregational and self-owned. They belong to the Diocese as Episcopal churches.

I think the general attitude of the writer is a bit dramatic. The church is holding on, as are other denominations, dealing with concerns that face us all. Five years on and we are still here.

Not so much, currently, as to it being a settled issue. The legal tone of the first property litigations was set by some assumptions/facts. One was the existence of the Dennis Canon (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Canon) which asserted a form of implicit trust over all property of parishes in TEC. Individual parishes leaving TEC often found that secular courts. assuming that TEC was some form of overall hierarchy (it isn’t; it’s hierarchical up to the diocesan level), tended to award the property to the TEC, regardless of what name was on the legal title.

As entire dioceses (5, to date) began to separate from TEC, the legal tone shifted to favoring the neutral approach, common to to all regular trusts. It was noted that in such a case, neutral trust law held that no legal trust could be established except by definitive action of the legal title holder to the property in question. No such thing as an implicit trust. And, as noted at the linked site, things began to change. The latest major litigation with respect to several related issues, in addition to the property title one, in the Diocese of South Carolina, is due for a judgement, as we speak. But to date, the departing Diocese of SChas won every round.

The subject is still a murky one (motley, even), but it is not a settled legal question. Which is encouraging.

Also, it should be noted that, like almost everything,it is complicated.

 

[Padres1969]

ComplineSanFran;13659560:

The concern you raised, however, about the ownership of the church buildings in cases where congregations have left the denomination has been pretty much determined. They are not congregational and self-owned. They belong to the Diocese as Episcopal churches.

QUOTE]

Yup the courts have decided in favour of TEC rather than individual congregations; but that is exactly my concern. Congregations pay the bills, and fund building programmes over decades, only to be ripped off by the hierarchy.

Same would happen if it ever came up in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Not sure what denomination you belong to, but for many church bodies that are hierarchical, it makes perfect sense. Think of these churches as a sports league like Major League Soccer for an easy secular analogue. Yes the local team funds much of its own needs and runs itself day to day, but ultimately the individual parishes are still subject to and owned by the larger church organization, in the ECUSA’s case usually the diocese. And keep in mind many individual churches in many of the hierarchical denominations are not solely funded by their congregations, but by the diocese as well.

This isn’t analogous to say an independently run Baptist congregation.

 

[crai7]

You do realize that article is well over 4 years old right?

Episcopal Church is still here and at least in my neck of the woods not doing too badly. At least no worse than Catholicism and mainline Protestantism.

Also when reading an article, consider the source. Beliefnet was sold by Fox to a pair of Evangelical Christian mouthpieces back in 2010. So of course that informs their agenda and their “reporting” which would be decidedly anti-mainline protestant, and in particular more “liberal” churches such as ELCA, UCC and TEC.

It is not dated - are you sure it is not after the 2012 convention? However, looking at the latest data, it is hardly a rosy picture of health with losses in the 2013 to 2014 period being almost double the previous period.

Sitting at only 600,000± weekly attendance, in a population of over 300 million, it is not particularly encouraging - languishing behind most of the other mainline denominations - never mind the Pentocostals.

After the Diocese of South Carolina recently broke away and won its court case (2015) to keep property worth $500 million, that must surely put a dent in attendance and finances. Perhaps S. Carolina is a special exception for historical reasons, but the move might embolden more breakaways in future.

 

[crai7]

crai7;13659625:

Same would happen if it ever came up in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Not sure what denomination you belong to, but for many church bodies that are hierarchical, it makes perfect sense. Think of these churches as a sports league like Major League Soccer for an easy secular analogue. Yes the local team funds much of its own needs and runs itself day to day, but ultimately the individual parishes are still subject to and owned by the larger church organization, in the ECUSA’s case usually the diocese. And keep in mind many individual churches in many of the hierarchical denominations are not solely funded by their congregations, but by the diocese as well.

This isn’t analogous to say an independently run Baptist congregation.

It would be interesting to see the income statements over the years. How much money came from the local congregations for building programmes, and how much came from the broader church… and when we say ‘broader church’ we are simply talking about money being shuffled round, since the money ultimately comes from congregants in most cases.

 

[Little_Sheep]

News of the demise of TEC has been greatly exaggerated, y’all!

Honest to Pete, we’ve never been a super large denomination. We are small, but mighty! A remnant, perhaps…

I will agree that, in current times, MOST denominations seem to be “down” in numbers, but it never makes any sense to me when folks try to paint Episcopalians as outside of the general trend of that fact.

In any event, it is always sad when there is division of the body of Christ. I personally don’t think the body of Christ really can be divided, not in any eternal or elemental sense, but humans and our ever present egos can sure get the job done.

I am dear friends with the man who was the Secretary of the Diocese of Virginia when they went through similar litigious horrors. My own childhood church, the place I will be buried, is in a similar struggle (South Carolina diocese). It is particularly pernicious throughout the South, but most of it is water under the bridge.

Let us continue to hold all Christians in our hearts and prayers. We have real work to do here. I myself am proud to be a member of one of the churches that is doing it.

 

[Little_Sheep]

crai7;13659625:

Same would happen if it ever came up in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Not sure what denomination you belong to, but for many church bodies that are hierarchical, it makes perfect sense. Think of these churches as a sports league like Major League Soccer for an easy secular analogue. Yes the local team funds much of its own needs and runs itself day to day, but ultimately the individual parishes are still subject to and owned by the larger church organization, in the ECUSA’s case usually the diocese. And keep in mind many individual churches in many of the hierarchical denominations are not solely funded by their congregations, but by the diocese as well.

This isn’t analogous to say an independently run Baptist congregation.

Excellent explanation.

 

[Padres1969]

It is not dated - are you sure it is not after the 2012 convention? However, looking at the latest data, it is hardly a rosy picture of health with losses in the 2013 to 2014 period being almost double the previous period.

Sitting at only 600,000± weekly attendance, in a population of over 300 million, it is not particularly encouraging - languishing behind most of the other mainline denominations - never mind the Pentocostals.

After the Diocese of South Carolina recently broke away and won its court case (2015) to keep property worth $500 million, that must surely put a dent in attendance and finances. Perhaps S. Carolina is a special exception for historical reasons, but the move might embolden more breakaways in future.

You’re assuming anyone else wants to breakaway. Most of the breakaways have already happened, Diocese of S. Carolina (which just for information sake does not mean the entire state of S. Carolina) being one of the the largest. But that 2015 decided court case was the summation of a years long court battle that began roughly around the time of this article you posted was written (2012). Since then the only other decision I’m aware of was the Falls Church, VA court decision in 2014 which again was the summation of a years long court battle (and that one went the other way with the assets being assigned to the ECUSA.) I highly doubt the decision is going to embolden anyone who hadn’t already withdrawn.

And yes the ECUSA has seen a decline both in recent years and in the last half century, but it’s actually not really any different than mainline Protestantism in general in that regard (or Catholicism for that matter when immigrants aren’t included). The ECUSA has seen a 49% drop in membership in the last 50 years. But that’s in line with other mainline denominations which have seen between 27% (ELCA) and 67% (Disciples of Christ) drops in membership. The other big mainline denominations, Presbyterian Church, Methodist Church, Reformed Church, United Church of Christ, have all seen drop offs in that range. Even some non-mainline churches like the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has seen a 20% drop in that 50 year time. And churches like the SBC which have grown overall in that time are starting to see losses in more recent years. All of Christianity is hurting in the west other than the Seventh Day Adventists, non denominational Churches and if you want to count them as Christian the LDS Church by some accounts is holding steady but even they are shrinking according to others. I’d point you to this:

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/05/PR_15.05.12_RLS-00.png

I’ll agree with Little Sheep here. The ECUSA is an oft used target because many in more conservative leaning denominations disagree with their stances on issues, but fact is the ECUSA is not unique in it’s struggles right now.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Honestly, TEC needs to take a good look at themselves (generally speaking)/

I am not a practicing Episcopalian and will not return to TEC… I regularly attend Catholic Mass with my husband.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Honestly, TEC needs to take a good look at themselves (generally speaking)/

Honestly, all Christians need to take a good look at themselves during this holy Lenten season.

 

[GKC]

Honestly, TEC needs to take a good look at themselves (generally speaking)/

I am not a practicing Episcopalian and will not return to TEC… I regularly attend Catholic Mass with my husband.

Well said. Generally.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Honestly, all Christians need to take a good look at themselves during this holy Lenten season.

I agree. However, TEC needs to still take a look, since they insist on operating outside of the Bible (SSM, etc.)

 

[Padres1969]

Honestly, TEC needs to take a good look at themselves (generally speaking)/

I am not a practicing Episcopalian and will not return to TEC… I regularly attend Catholic Mass with my husband.

That’s unfortunate you won’t be coming back, but I’m sure everyone wishes you well on your journey of faith. Are you looking into converting to Catholicism or joining one of the continuing Anglican movements?

I agree. However, TEC needs to still take a look, since they insist on operating outside of the Bible (SSM, etc.)

Since the ECUSA and Episcopalians in general don’t see themselves or ourselves respectively operating outside the bible not sure what you expect us to find.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I agree. However, TEC needs to still take a look, since they insist on operating outside of the Bible (SSM, etc.)

I agree that all of us who operate outside of the heart of Christ are called to really look at ourselves and our institutions during this season. May God bless you with a holy Lent.

 

[Sy_Noe]

You’re assuming anyone else wants to breakaway. Most of the breakaways have already happened, Diocese of S. Carolina (which just for information sake does not mean the entire state of S. Carolina) being one of the the largest. But that 2015 decided court case was the summation of a years long court battle that began roughly around the time of this article you posted was written (2012). Since then the only other decision I’m aware of was the Falls Church, VA court decision in 2014 which again was the summation of a years long court battle (and that one went the other way with the assets being assigned to the ECUSA.) I highly doubt the decision is going to embolden anyone who hadn’t already withdrawn.

And yes the ECUSA has seen a decline both in recent years and in the last half century, but it’s actually not really any different than mainline Protestantism in general in that regard (or Catholicism for that matter when immigrants aren’t included). The ECUSA has seen a 49% drop in membership in the last 50 years. But that’s in line with other mainline denominations which have seen between 27% (ELCA) and 67% (Disciples of Christ) drops in membership. The other big mainline denominations, Presbyterian Church, Methodist Church, Reformed Church, United Church of Christ, have all seen drop offs in that range. Even some non-mainline churches like the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has seen a 20% drop in that 50 year time. And churches like the SBC which have grown overall in that time are starting to see losses in more recent years. All of Christianity is hurting in the west other than the Seventh Day Adventists, non denominational Churches and if you want to count them as Christian the LDS Church by some accounts is holding steady but even they are shrinking according to others. I’d point you to this:

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/05/PR_15.05.12_RLS-00.png

I’ll agree with Little Sheep here. The ECUSA is an oft used target because many in more conservative leaning denominations disagree with their stances on issues, but fact is the ECUSA is not unique in it’s struggles right now.

I’ve never understood what seems to me sometimes to be an obsession among some Catholics here in discussing declines in other churches. I wonder if the Catholic declines would appear to be greater if everyone baptized a Catholic were not considered to always be a Catholic.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Honestly, TEC needs to take a good look at themselves (generally speaking)/

I am not a practicing Episcopalian and will not return to TEC… I regularly attend Catholic Mass with my husband.

I am not a practicing Catholic.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I’ve never understood what seems to me sometimes to be an obsession among some Catholics here in discussing declines in other churches. I wonder if the Catholic declines would appear to be greater if everyone baptized a Catholic were not considered to always be a Catholic.

Yes, I have noticed that too, Sy. Perhaps if we turn the question around, however, and ask what are faith traditions on the top of the list in terms of growth? I’ll have to look for some reputable data, but in every lecture or paper I come across, the top two have consistently been the Mormons and the Muslims. (And I am intentionally not looking at the rising numbers of the “Nones”.)

Catholic numbers stay about even, primarily due to immigration. Without the immigrant population, the RCC would probably be in the same downswing as the mainlines.

I wonder if the LDS church also counts all (living) baptized people as members, regardless of how active they are or not. It would be a good comparison with the way Catholics count their members - once baptized Catholic, always on the rolls.

But to go back to the topic at hand, I am interested in looking at the whole picture rather than saying, ‘Oh, the Episcopalians are having a meltdown. It must be the gays.’ or ‘Presbyterians are losing half their membership in the next five years. They are too liberal.’ There is a larger picture currently of religion in the West. We are all going through a huge shift. If you read Phyllis Tickle, it happens every 500 years and we are quite on time for the big shake up.