Episcopalian today?

[eightydeuce82]

I hear a lot of talk about being conservative and moderate and attending “churches” that fit those convictions…does anyone not see the issue with this?

If a church is flipflopping on major issues like divorce, abortion, gay so called marriage, ordinations etc…Huston we have a problem.

Again we get into the conversation of authority. Where is yours?

 

[KKM]

82, interesting point.

Hmm, now I’m curious. If someone in the LGBT community wants to join the Catholic church, are they allowed to join? I guess that’s a long shot already, but are they actually turned away?

 

[eightydeuce82]

82, interesting point.

Hmm, now I’m curious. If someone in the LGBT community wants to join the Catholic church, are they allowed to join? I guess that’s a long shot already, but are they actually turned away?

They most certainly are allowed to join! In fact we had one come in at my parish this Easter.

However they are called to chastity and can not have relations with the same sex.

 

[eightydeuce82]

82, interesting point.

Hmm, now I’m curious. If someone in the LGBT community wants to join the Catholic church, are they allowed to join? I guess that’s a long shot already, but are they actually turned away?

The church does not turn away anyone! Just like anyone else they are asked to free themselves from sin.

If they are joining the Catholic church im sure they are well aware of its position on the matter! since there really isn’t anyone that is so public about their position.

 

[KKM]

Oh, I wasn’t assuming they aren’t aware, I imagine that’s the whole point of the Episcopal church right now is to give them somewhere to go - or maybe to just get more members. Since LBGT folks are encourage to be extremely open about their situation, pressured, in fact, by the people who are activists for them, the Episcopal church seems to be responding… but if they are going to make that their mission, they might end up losing a lot more members. I personally, feel apathetic to the issue. Its not for me to ponder what their fate shall be: I don’t wish ill on them OR feel the need to go champion for them. I won’t apologize for not wanting to stay in a church (Episcopalian) who feels that it is in their power to call judgment for or against the LGBT community. My only thought on it is that thankfully, I am not one to judge that, nor is any other human on this planet.

 

[commenter]

82, interesting point.

Hmm, now I’m curious. If someone in the LGBT community wants to join the Catholic church, are they allowed to join? I guess that’s a long shot already, but are they actually turned away?

Sure. Those who have an a craving towards abusing alcohol are welcome, too. And people like me, as well, who may be worse than the other 2 groups.

But I’m not sure what is meant by “LGBT community”. If it means only those who value LGBT friends and want formal and informal social support, fine. The Church also offers a movement, COURAGE. There likely are other groups consistent with Christian values. Persons who are “LGBT” have many interests.

Chastity is a requirement, for them, and for all of us. Yes people sometimes falter. We go to Confession. Some situations that are a near occasion of sin for me, might not be, for someone else.

The TEC’s stand on LGBT is closely related to their stand on abortion. They are defining themselves as no longer adhering to the Natural Law. This trend will continue on other things.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Oh, I wasn’t assuming they aren’t aware, I imagine that’s the whole point of the Episcopal church right now is to give them somewhere to go - or maybe to just get more members. Since LBGT folks are encourage to be extremely open about their situation, pressured, in fact, by the people who are activists for them, the Episcopal church seems to be responding… but if they are going to make that their mission, they might end up losing a lot more members. I personally, feel apathetic to the issue. Its not for me to ponder what their fate shall be: I don’t wish ill on them OR feel the need to go champion for them. I won’t apologize for not wanting to stay in a church (Episcopalian) who feels that it is in their power to call judgment for or against the LGBT community. My only thought on it is that thankfully, I am not one to judge that, nor is any other human on this planet.

If a “church” is giving someone a “place to go” and said church is condoning sin and saying its not sin then this is a dangerous place to be. Imagine you used a different situation substitute abortion for the LGBT person. Would you be ok with a church providing an abortion because the person needed a place to go??

They most certainly will lose members but in the typical protestant tradition a mini reformation will take place. The conservatives will either become catholic or create a new church or move to a more conservative one. Of course this doesn’t change the teachings of said church and the marginalizing or complete lack of pointing out sin by said church.

 

[masuwerte]

So the attitude you’re describing is certainly present in some quarters and may grow in the future, but I have not encountered it personally except online.

That’s been my experience as well.

While I’m often disappointed in the leadership of the Episcopal Church, I realize that they are human and far from perfect.

The rector of my parish, a woman, is liturgically conservative and staunchly pro-life. I honestly don’t know what her opinions are about gay marriage, but I can’t recall that she’s ever celebrated one, at least since she’s been serving this congregation.

 

[eightydeuce82]

“churches” not founded on the rock will all meet this fate. When there is no authority outside the bible then there is a problem since it can be interpreted in ANY way to suit ANY situation or position (conservative or liberal).

You could even have traditional protestant churches who have completely changed their long held positions on very important topics (which they have) and you get the same thing who is the authority? Apparently its man.

None of those situations are any indication of a “church”.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That’s been my experience as well.

While I’m often disappointed in the leadership of the Episcopal Church, I realize that they are human and far from perfect.

The rector of my parish, a woman, is liturgically conservative and staunchly pro-life. I honestly don’t know what her opinions are about gay marriage, but I can’t recall that she’s ever celebrated one, at least since she’s been serving this congregation.

Why do you think so many protestant pastors leave the faith and come home to Rome. So your authority rests with your minister? She may be conservative but what happens when she moves on and you get a liberal gay minister that celebrates gay marriage? Since your church finds this completely ok? If you know the bible and tradition do not even show a hint of a dispensation for “gay marriage” yet your church actively participates in it (not your specific church) how do you reconcile that?

 

[7_Sorrows]

That’s been my experience as well.

While I’m often disappointed in the leadership of the Episcopal Church, I realize that they are human and far from perfect.

The rector of my parish, a woman, is liturgically conservative and staunchly pro-life. I honestly don’t know what her opinions are about gay marriage, but I can’t recall that she’s ever celebrated one, at least since she’s been serving this congregation.

I attended a conservative episcopal church in Arizona in the 1990’s.
Homosexuals were allowed to join as long as they were not involved in an active homosexual lifestyle. So not all episcopal churches are the same. Many will welcome same sex couples living a homosexual lifestyle.

 

[Thorolfr]

That is not my experience. I have always been conservative on this issue, though admittedly I’ve become more moderate and conflicted about it over the years, and I have never been treated with anything but welcome in Episcopal parishes. The institutional leadership of the denomination has treated some dioceses and parishes harshly, but to be fair these were folks who clearly intended to leave the denomination (or at least wanted to wall themselves off from the rest of the denomination) and wanted to take their property with them. People like my former bishop Ed Little who are conservative on sexuality but are gracious and collegial in how they relate to more liberal bishops have not had much trouble that I’m aware of, though I know that Bishop Little wonders whether there will be a place for people like him in a generation.

So the attitude you’re describing is certainly present in some quarters and may grow in the future, but I have not encountered it personally except online.

My rector from New Jersey (actually technically not my rector since I never formally joined her parish, precisely because of my discomfort with the direction TEC was heading) was genuinely indignant when the local liberal (United Methodist) seminary did not give me a job (not directly connected to this issue but clearly connected in general to my more conservative approach as a scholar). She said, “if they are really liberal they should be inclusive of everyone, including conservatives.” And she was quite liberal in her own theology. Similarly, the priest of my wife’s parish here in Kentucky has been nothing but gracious and affirming to me, although she knows that my theology is significantly different from hers (I think she may actually exaggerate how conservative I am, or at least how closed-minded I am about it, since she hesitated to recommend a book by Richard Rohr to me). In between I belonged to a parish in Indiana (under Bishop Little) that was quite conservative.

Edwin

The picture that some people paint of supposedly “liberal” denominations are often overly simplistic. I’m gay and quite liberal but the Lutheran congregation of which my partner and I are members (ELCA) has some fairly conservative members in it (who undoubtedly consider me and my partner to be big sinners) and we also have a very traditional service with a traditional liturgy (as opposed to some ELCA congregations which have a so-called “contemporary” service). But the liberals and conservatives in my congregation somehow manage to get along with each other and treat each other with respect.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The picture that some people paint of supposedly “liberal” denominations are often overly simplistic. I’m gay and quite liberal but the Lutheran congregation of which my partner and I are members (ELCA) has some fairly conservative members in it (who undoubtedly consider me and my partner to be big sinners) and we also have a very traditional service with a traditional liturgy (as opposed to some ELCA congregations which have a so-called “contemporary” service). But the liberals and conservatives in my congregation somehow manage to get along with each other and treat each other with respect.

Amen Thorolfr. The Episcopal diocese where I live allows its priests to sign marriage licenses for SS couples now that SS couples are allowed to marry in my state. So I guess folks here might consider it to be liberal. But a priest at a nearby Episcopal parish explained all of this to me in this way: If 2 people believe in one God and in Jesus, there’s no reason why they can’t be part of the same worshiping family even if they disagree on homosexuality. And her congregation has worshipers with differing views too. Sounds like your Lutheran congo. God bless. I’m so thankful you and your partner have found a home in which to worship and can be who you are in it. Peace be with you both.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Amen Thorolfr. The Episcopal diocese where I live allows its priests to sign marriage licenses for SS couples now that SS couples are allowed to marry in my state. So I guess folks here might consider it to be liberal. But a priest at a nearby Episcopal parish explained all of this to me in this way: If 2 people believe in one God and in Jesus, there’s no reason why they can’t be part of the same worshiping family even if they disagree on homosexuality. And her congregation has worshipers with differing views too. Sounds like your Lutheran congo. God bless. I’m so thankful you and your partner have found a home in which to worship and can be who you are in it. Peace be with you both.

So if two people love one another they are perfectly ok with not following the bible or the commands therein? Simply because they believe in god? Interesting concept.

 

[Thorolfr]

So if two people love one another they are perfectly ok with not following the bible or the commands therein? Simply because they believe in god? Interesting concept.

So what is your proposed solution? Should these people you disagree with be banished from church? Is that what you think God wants?

 

[eightydeuce82]

So what is your proposed solution? Should these people you disagree with be banished from church? Is that what you think God wants?

Nope these is no solution that needs to be had follow ALL the teachings of the bible and of Christ and stop making up things as you go and capitulating to society and beliefs that are condemned. Chopping up the bible and Christian faith into bits and pieces and selecting the ones you do and do not like and only putting an emphasis on those is the wrong way to look at these things.

Its not the churches these people need to be offended by in reality they are offended by God when you get to the root.

The Catholic Church has no problem with someone having same sex attraction. They are free to be a member of the church and take part in ALL the sacraments. But like anyone else as soon as they act on those sins they are basically excommunicated. A gay person just like a regular guy who commits a sin is put out of the community until they come into line with it. Just like the very first Christians did and is talked about in the bible.

Playing cafeteria Christian simply isn’t how this all works. Unless you can change Gods opinion on these matters id say you have a faith issue and an obedience issue rather than a "what should the church do to fix it issue!

 

[eightydeuce82]

So what is your proposed solution? Should these people you disagree with be banished from church? Is that what you think God wants?

In short this isn’t our church to change! This is what was given and this is what we are bound to adhere to.

 

[Sy_Noe]

So if two people love one another they are perfectly ok with not following the bible or the commands therein? Simply because they believe in god? Interesting concept.

They may simply have a different understanding of the Bible than you do.

 

[eightydeuce82]

They may simply have a different understanding of the Bible than you do.

Exactly! That is the MAIN Issue now isn’t it! Same thing we have been saying for the last 490 years. Of course we know that there is only ONE truth now don’t we.

 

[Thorolfr]

Nope these is no solution that needs to be had follow ALL the teachings of the bible and of Christ and stop making up things as you go and capitulating to society and beliefs that are condemned. Chopping up the bible and Christian faith into bits and pieces and selecting the ones you do and do not like and only putting an emphasis on those is the wrong way to look at these things.

Its not the churches these people need to be offended by in reality they are offended by God when you get to the root.

The Catholic Church has no problem with someone having same sex attraction. They are free to be a member of the church and take part in ALL the sacraments. But like anyone else as soon as they act on those sins they are basically excommunicated. A gay person just like a regular guy who commits a sin is put out of the community until they come into line with it. Just like the very first Christians did and is talked about in the bible.

Playing cafeteria Christian simply isn’t how this all works. Unless you can change Gods opinion on these matters id say you have a faith issue and an obedience issue rather than a "what should the church do to fix it issue!

So is that what happens to most Catholics who commit what are considered to be sins, to divorced and remarried Catholics and gay Catholics, etc.? Are they all told not to come to Mass until they change their ways?