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eightydeuce82
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Actual history trumps art history.
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AbideWithMe
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Viewing actual paintings of heretics being burned at the stake, painted by Catholic-sponsored artists from the 1300-1400’s should help your knowledge of history, art-wise and actual.
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LutheranScholar
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No. It was a Reformation. Martin Luther brought the Church back on track, where praying directly to Jesus Christ in the language of the people while putting the Bible into the hands of the people. With his companions, he rightly divided apostolic teaching between the Law and the Gospel, neither interfering with the other, both necessary. He taught the Law to the reprobate, to terrify them with the knowledge of God’s wrath against sin and then he offered the balm of the Gospel. There is only one right way, you’re right and that way is revealed to each believer by the agency of the Holy Spirit, as God gives them the ability.
Luther revealed the concept of Christian Freedom to us and to the pope as well, just before he was excommunicated lutheransonline.com/lo/684/FSLO-1328320684-111684.pdf. Once the Holy Spirit activates faith, beginning in Holy Baptism and fed by hearing the Word and receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, the individual believer is made part of the Body of Christ. What some other communion may think of that action is irrelevant. God trumps bureaucracy. No, Truth is not contradiction. Who is Truth? Jesus. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and where two or more are gathered together in His Name, there He is in the midst of them. Whatever the denominational label. No silly self- declared faux elitism will ever change that. The Church is where the Word is properly proclaimed and the Sacraments correctly administered. If we want to get historical, I reckon we know who won the Thirty Years War and who precipitated the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. Yes, the Spanish Inquisition burned people at the stake, I know of no French Huguenots who burned people alive. The truth is one, the Protestant expressions many. So what? That just means that the Gospel is proclaimed more and more. So much the better. The perceived disunity may distress some Catholics who think they have some institutional monopoly on the truth, but it bothers most Protestants not at all, because we know that He Who unites us is more important than those points of doctrine which divide us. We all are the Church.
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LutheranScholar
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No, you’re right. God revealed this to him.
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Mystophilus
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Mystophilus
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eightydeuce82
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Right he did so by apparently calling christ a lier. breakimg apostolic succession and breaking ties with Rome. Installing a heretical unbiblical doctrine of sola scripture and in doing so opened up a million mini reformations. Changing the bible (because apparently he had the authority to do so). It was a revolt. Ignoring christian history the early church and everything before his time. He sure reformed it alright right down the toilet. Effectively starting a movement that did exactly what he was charging Rome with. In fact before he died there had already started the infinite fracturing of Christianity and even commented on it. So if you call that righting the church I guess doing so making it look absolutely nothing like the first, second, third, fourth, fith, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, you get my drift church. All that man did was open a Pandora’s box that has caused more division and confusion amongst Christians than at any time in its history including the Ryan heretical movement. Had he survived longer he would have been dumbfounded.
You all have obviously never researched the Irish holocaust maybe you can do that when your looking at people being burned at the stake of course no catholic clergy ever did that to anyone.
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eightydeuce82
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Also he didn’t put the bible Into the hands of the people guttenburgh did that. Not that it mattered much since everyone was basically illiterate up UNTILL the 20th century. How great would that have been from the year 400-1517 everyone would have had s glorified paperweight.
The church never restricted anyone from owning a bible and they had already translated it into many languages well before Luther. What the church didn’t want was people making heretical incorrect bibles through poor translation. Many of those were published including the KJV which at one time was considered a bible with more errors than water in the ocean.
Of course he also changed the bible from its original cannon because apparently any guy has the ability to do that if he chooses. Or was just Martin Luther inspired and able to do that. If so why didn’t he write scripture?
The church never restricted anyone from owning a bible and they had already translated it into many languages well before Luther. What the church didn’t want was people making heretical incorrect bibles through poor translation. Many of those were published including the KJV which at one time was considered a bible with more errors than water in the ocean.
Of course he also changed the bible from its original cannon because apparently any guy has the ability to do that if he chooses. Or was just Martin Luther inspired and able to do that. If so why didn’t he write scripture?
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Mystophilus
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No, art history is “actual history”, such as this page from the Chroniques de France ou de Saint Denis, 1487.
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eightydeuce82
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The old tired long refuted tenants of Protestantism are just that old and tired and they don’t work. Some are not only not found anywhere in the bible but some are just plain ridiculous and the only way they could even potentially be accurate is if you chopped the bible into bits. So let’s allmthank Luther for starting a wonderful fracturing of Christianity and effectively kicking off the Age of Enlightenment which led to the complete secularist ion of faith and more importantly the loss of faith for millions who fell into the secular movement. We can thank him for Mormonism and Jahovas whitnesses becaue by Protestant standards they are just as valid as anyone else. Of course no one In Protestantism has any right to say otherwise you know being fallible people and all. Thank goodness he showed us an infallible book is able to be interpreted literally infinite ways all the while calling on the Holy Spirit to guide the reader to truth yet everyone seems to come up with such different understanding. Yet all remain convicted that theirs is the right way! Sure guys that’s exactly what God intended. Man to be left as his own authority and routing the faith bashed on his own experiences and ideas. Of course none of it matches up with early Christianity except the doctrines that were maintained from the Catholic Church. so thanks Luther.
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Mystophilus
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:clapping:
Indeed, bravo, Herr Luther!
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7_Sorrows
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Not even King Henry VIII defended Luther. Do you know the history of the Church of England?
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Sy_Noe
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I once saw a Disciples of Christ pastor saying the very same thing about the One most important of all Who unites us. Amen. Well said.Christ breaks down walls. (Ephesians 2:14)
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Sy_Noe
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The beginnings of the Church of England date back to at least the 2nd century when Christianity was first brought to England and to St Augustine’s mission in 597. During the Reformation, papal authority was repudiated.
episcopalchurch.org/page/history-episcopal-church
Incidentally, though Catholics disagree, TEC maintains it has apostolic succession. I’ve been told by an Episcopal priest it’s why persons confirmed in the Roman Church like myself need not be re-confirmed in TEC but can merely be received into their church.
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Mystophilus
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Yes, I do, and it is no problem whatsoever, because I’m not bound to presume that everything that the CofE or the Monarchy have ever done was necessarily good. This is one of the things for which I have Luther and the Reformation to thank: they created a climate in which dissent, i.e. freedom of thought and speech on metaphysical matters, eventually became an accepted right.
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KKM
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Hmm, well, I think I got my answer. sigh
All these social issues will fade out in time, though, they always do.
All these social issues will fade out in time, though, they always do.
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LutheranScholar
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Having Scottish and Scotch- Irish ancestry ( among the German, English and French), of course I’m familiar with the history of that country, up to and including the depredations of the IRA and the monstrosities of the Siege of Londonderry. If Luther brought the focus back on Christ and if that was no way the Church looked beforehand, then it is a good thing he did so. Apparently the corruption lasted longer than I thought. " Fracturing Christianity?" LOL, all that mean was that there were more people to spread the Gospel, never forgetting that the country that I live in, at least, was originally settled by Protestants. Yes, the Age of Reason was a good thing. People were brought to the knowledge of choice. Ignoring the contributions of the Protestant movement while harping on its faults don’t make the contributions any less. There is no confusion among the people of the church I attend, or the denomination I’m affiliated with. Yes, Martin Luther had his faults, as did Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and Henry VIII. Pope Leo X wasn’t exactly an angel, either. Selling spiritual " benefits" so you can build a church? Really? Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox should stand together as brothers and sisters, as Christ has called us to do, but as long as you seek to absorb us back into a system we see as gravely flawed ( of course everybody backs its own team, so how about *non- Catholic *sources telling us how wonderful the Catholic Church is, eh?) and keep praying and working for our downfall, we’ll push back. Our churches are growing and we’re gaining members in Africa and Asia as I type. The Holy Spirit is moving among His elect and gathering us into His Church. If you want to bring Irish history into it, that’s great. After celebrating Tartan Day last Monday, I’m ready to defend a significant portion of my family.
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LutheranScholar
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Lutheran doctrinal Statements: lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition
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eightydeuce82
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Luther didn’t bring the focus back on Christ he effectively enabled main line heresy an turned it into an unstoppable movement. So unstoppable as I type this another denomination is forming in a mini reformation. As I type we are also gaining ground in all the places you just mentioned Especially Africa. There is a reason why Protestantism doesn’t do well in countries where ancient languages are spoken and read! The bible when read in Greek or Hebrew doesn’t provide the options that protestants have when reading a verse in English or modern Languages. Its simply not possible to come to the conclusions many protestants have come to in those languages. So you can say its growing but so are we and we have been for 2000 years. Anyone steeped in history who is intellectually honest ends up Catholic. Unfortunately the age of intellectual honesty is about dead.Having Scottish and Scotch- Irish ancestry ( among the German, English and French), of course I’m familiar with the history of that country, up to and including the depredations of the IRA and the monstrosities of the Siege of Londonderry. If Luther brought the focus back on Christ and if that was no way the Church looked beforehand, then it is a good thing he did so. Apparently the corruption lasted longer than I thought. " Fracturing Christianity?" LOL, all that mean was that there were more people to spread the Gospel, never forgetting that the country that I live in, at least, was originally settled by Protestants. Yes, the Age of Reason was a good thing. People were brought to the knowledge of choice. Ignoring the contributions of the Protestant movement while harping on its faults don’t make the contributions any less. There is no confusion among the people of the church I attend, or the denomination I’m affiliated with. Yes, Martin Luther had his faults, as did Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and Henry VIII. Pope Leo X wasn’t exactly an angel, either. Selling spiritual " benefits" so you can build a church? Really? Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox should stand together as brothers and sisters, as Christ has called us to do, but as long as you seek to absorb us back into a system we see as gravely flawed ( of course everybody backs its own team, so how about *non- Catholic *sources telling us how wonderful the Catholic Church is, eh?) and keep praying and working for our downfall, we’ll push back. Our churches are growing and we’re gaining members in Africa and Asia as I type. The Holy Spirit is moving among His elect and gathering us into His Church. If you want to bring Irish history into it, that’s great. After celebrating Tartan Day last Monday, I’m ready to defend a significant portion of my family.
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LutheranScholar
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They’ve worked for nearly five centuries. Just because some people out there perverted it’s tenets does not make the truth of the message any less. The Holy Spirit reveals things to people according to their ability and yes, we stand by Biblical Canon. Just because Luther tossed out an uninspired Apocrypha so we could get to the meat of the Scripture does not mean that the Gospel or the Law was thrown out. All 27 books of the New Testament remain intact. As far as learning goes, Protestants have a funny habit of producing top- notch universities and have done since the age of Luther, Calvin and Henry VIII. Mocking us and belittling us here will not make our message shrink, nor will it make us disappear. Our people have died for the Cross of Christ, we’ve historically shown ourselves to be more inclusive as to those whom we call fellow Christians and while we do pray for unity, that unity isn’t restricted to a hierarchy. If Rome’s pissed that she’s lost the better part of Northern and Western Europe ( with its income) then maybe she shouldn’t have abused the power she had while they were still within her orbit.
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