Episcopalian today?

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šŸ‘ Amen Thorolfr. The Episcopal diocese where I live allows its priests to sign marriage licenses for SS couples now that SS couples are allowed to marry in my state. So I guess folks here might consider it to be liberal. But a priest at a nearby Episcopal parish explained all of this to me in this way: If 2 people believe in one God and in Jesus, there’s no reason why they can’t be part of the same worshiping family even if they disagree on homosexuality. And her congregation has worshipers with differing views too. Sounds like your Lutheran congo. God bless. I’m so thankful you and your partner have found a home in which to worship and can be who you are in it. Peace be with you both.
If they believe in God, they wouldn’t be in a ss relationship.

In my honest opinion.
 
QUOTE=Scears;12886146]If they believe in God, they wouldn’t be in a ss relationship.

In my honest opinion.

:clapping:

That was a much needed break in Patristic’s lol
 
If they believe in God, they wouldn’t be in a ss relationship.
Considering the fact that you just said that the gay Christians on CAF and elsewhere are not Christians, I would advise rephrasing that.

Believing in God does not prevent people being gay, and it does not prevent people being in gay relationships. Different people believe quite different things about God and the Bible and the Church, while all still believing in God.
 
Considering the fact that you just said that the gay Christians on CAF and elsewhere are not Christians, I would advise rephrasing that.

Believing in God does not prevent people being gay, and it does not prevent people being in gay relationships. Different people believe quite different things about God and the Bible and the Church, while all still believing in God.
I kind of equated it to this analogy.

If you truly believed that Jesus Body, Blood, Should and Divinity was in the Eucharist you wouldn’t receive it in a state of mortal sin and you would approach him on your knees.
 
Considering the fact that you just said that the gay Christians on CAF and elsewhere are not Christians, I would advise rephrasing that.

Believing in God does not prevent people being gay, and it does not prevent people being in gay relationships. Different people believe quite different things about God and the Bible and the Church, while all still believing in God.
BTW Belief in God doesn’t make you a Christian kinda like using the term catholic doesn’t make you a Catholic.
 
You know what I’m getting out of this?

ā€œI love God the most.ā€
ā€œNo… I LOVE GOD THE MOST!ā€

The end result is quite positive. šŸ™‚
 
You know what I’m getting out of this?

ā€œI love God the most.ā€
ā€œNo… I LOVE GOD THE MOST!ā€

The end result is quite positive. šŸ™‚
Lol, welcome to CAF. You’ve grasped the essence of about half this forum already.

Feel free to move on to enjoying the Clubhouse sub forum. Or, may I recommend the ā€œProtestant vs. Catholic jokesā€ thread at the Back Fence to you?
 
Care for me to go on I have thousands more? I’m not sure where in the early church you see a problem with authority of the pope and the Petrine primacy?
I gave you several examples.

And yes, I’ve seen such lists of canned quotations before 🤷

Some of them I know in context, some I don’t (I don’t know Cyril of Jerusalem half as well as I should like, though I think I like him at least half as well as he deserves).

Have you actually read any of them in context? Do you want to talk about them in context?

Because lists of prooftexts, Biblical or patristic, Catholic or Protestant, aren’t very impressive.

But this is something I and lots of other people on this forum have been round dozens of times.

I think Olivier Clement’s You Are Peter sums up the evidence pretty well.

Edwin
 
Actually we can go backwards. When trouble erupted in the early churches when the apostles were still alive those churches appealed to the Chair of Peter and Rome for a resolution to local issues. An apostle was not sitting at the seat at that time.

Case and Point

it’s generally accepted that 1 Clement was written about 96, and that the Apostle John died about 100. So what? Well, consider how 1 Clement begins. Pope Clement, speaking on behalf of the entire Roman Church, says:

The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury.
What does this mean?

It means that when there was schism within the Corinthian church, they appealed all the way to Rome for assistance and consultation, even though the Apostle John was alive at the time. We don’t know exactly when the Corinthians wrote, but it was early enough that Clement is apologetic for his delayed response in 96 A.D.

Apart from the pope and the Apostles, no one is afforded this kind of respect and deference in the Apostolic age. And when Clement responds, he’s not afraid to order the schismatics to return to the true Church:

Ye therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that you should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, you should be cast out from the hope of His people.
So you have the Roman church intervening in a local church dispute, and issuing orders. You’ve got the Bishop of Rome speaking on behalf of the whole church of Rome. And you’ve got all this going on while the Apostle John is still alive. A standard Protestant ecclesiology would suggest that this matter would have been handled entirely at the congregational level, or barring that, by appealing to the still-living Apostle.
I for one have not denied Roman primacy.

I did point out several places where saints and Doctors acted as if Rome’s actions were quite open to question. And in at least one case, that involved a major doctrinal issue, though it’s one eventually resolved in Rome’s favor (baptism by heretics).

But the Clement business is overused. It does establish the importance of Rome early on, for sure. But note that he never calls himself bishop or even names himself. That supports the majority of scholars who say that there was no monarchical bishop in Rome at that time.

And I don’t care twopence about a ā€œstandard Protestant ecclesiology.ā€ I think you mean free-church congregationalism.

Edwin
 
I for one have not denied Roman primacy.

I did point out several places where saints and Doctors acted as if Rome’s actions were quite open to question. And in at least one case, that involved a major doctrinal issue, though it’s one eventually resolved in Rome’s favor (baptism by heretics).

But the Clement business is overused. It does establish the importance of Rome early on, for sure. But note that he never calls himself bishop or even names himself. That supports the majority of scholars who say that there was no monarchical bishop in Rome at that time.

And I don’t care twopence about a ā€œstandard Protestant ecclesiology.ā€ I think you mean free-church congregationalism.

Edwin
But we know he was Bishop and was ordained by the apostle and was quite aware he was sitting in the chair of Peter. There is that aspect. I find most people have never read the entire letter.
 
But we know he was Bishop and was ordained by the apostle and was quite aware he was sitting in the chair of Peter. There is that aspect. I find most people have never read the entire letter.
No, we don’t know these things, historically. We know that they were claimed at the end of the second century on his behalf, which is not quite the same thing. And did Irenaeus or anyone else claim that Clement was ordained by an apostle? In Irenaeus, at least, the apostles’ immediate successor in Rome was Linus, and Clement I think came after him. That’s not to say that they couldn’t have laid hands on Clement too–it’s quite likely they did, and it may be recorded somewhere that’s slipping my mind.

Edwin
 
I am a member of the Episcopal church, but when I’m looking to understand the Christian faith, I go to Catholic or Orthodox sources. Much of Anglicanism, it strikes me, has become a prolonged attempt to put Christian clothes on modern ideology. I’m not particularly orthodox myself, of course, since if I fully believed Catholic doctrine I would have no choice but to seek conversion. I’m at the place of wanting to believe, but being unable to do so – or perhaps I am like the rich young ruler who came to Christ, and ordered to sell his possessions, went away sad. I am much, much attached to my Episcopal parish and cannot imagine leaving it. If I moved cities, perhaps I could convert then, but I suspect that would do me little good If Christ admonished followers to put their love of him before even their own family, how can I say I love my church more than his? As yet I am not convinced of Anglicanism’ exclusion from the greater tradition that links Rome and Constantinople together.
 
I am a member of the Episcopal church, but when I’m looking to understand the Christian faith, I go to Catholic or Orthodox sources. Much of Anglicanism, it strikes me, has become a prolonged attempt to put Christian clothes on modern ideology. I’m not particularly orthodox myself, of course, since if I fully believed Catholic doctrine I would have no choice but to seek conversion. I’m at the place of wanting to believe, but being unable to do so – or perhaps I am like the rich young ruler who came to Christ, and ordered to sell his possessions, went away sad. I am much, much attached to my Episcopal parish and cannot imagine leaving it. If I moved cities, perhaps I could convert then, but I suspect that would do me little good If Christ admonished followers to put their love of him before even their own family, how can I say I love my church more than his? As yet I am not convinced of Anglicanism’ exclusion from the greater tradition that links Rome and Constantinople together.
It is certainly difficult if you have been worshipping in a particular church your whole life. Many times generations have worshipped in the same denomination. It is part of who you are. I was baptized in the episcopal church at the age of 2. I was confirmed in my teens. My Book of Common Prayer was my most cherished possession next to my Holy Bible. I loved the liturgy, the prayers, the Holy Communion. I knew we were extremely close to the Catholic church in our worship. I understood the Pope had no authority over us and that bothered me a little, but I loved being an episcopalian. Of course, sadly, the episcopal church changed. I had ceased being a practicing Christian and didn’t go to church for 25 years or more. I guess my baptism and my years in. the episcopal church left a mark on me. I never could join a regular protestant church or evangelical. I knew I needed to stay close to the Catholic tradition. I tried returning to the episcopal church, but by the 90’s it was moving too far left for me. You are high anglicab and I do not know how long you have been an anglican, but I understand how hard it is to leave something that is so much a part of who you are and familiar to you. I was 56 when I converted. I knew it was time.
 
It is certainly difficult if you have been worshipping in a particular church your whole life. Many times generations have worshipped in the same denomination. It is part of who you are. I was baptized in the episcopal church at the age of 2. I was confirmed in my teens. My Book of Common Prayer was my most cherished possession next to my Holy Bible. I loved the liturgy, the prayers, the Holy Communion. I knew we were extremely close to the Catholic church in our worship. I understood the Pope had no authority over us and that bothered me a little, but I loved being an episcopalian. Of course, sadly, the episcopal church changed. I had ceased being a practicing Christian and didn’t go to church for 25 years or more. I guess my baptism and my years in. the episcopal church left a mark on me. I never could join a regular protestant church or evangelical. I knew I needed to stay close to the Catholic tradition. I tried returning to the episcopal church, but by the 90’s it was moving too far left for me. You are high anglicab and I do not know how long you have been an anglican, but I understand how hard it is to leave something that is so much a part of who you are and familiar to you. I was 56 when I converted. I knew it was time.
Thanks for sharing your faith journey, 7 Sorrows. Yes it is hard and it can work in both directions. Mine is somewhat reversed from yours. I was baptized in the Roman rite at age 6 wks and confirmed before a teen. I actually think because of how difficult it can be to totally reject a part of who we are, it is a reason so many less faithful or dissenting Catholics still maintain some connection to the CC whether it is calling themselves Catholic (as the Church does), attending Christmas and Easter, or what have you. Peace be with you and God bless.
 
Thanks for sharing your faith journey, 7 Sorrows. Yes it is hard and it can work in both directions. Mine is somewhat reversed from yours. I was baptized in the Roman rite at age 6 wks and confirmed before a teen. I actually think because of how difficult it can be to totally reject a part of who we are, it is a reason so many less faithful or dissenting Catholics still maintain some connection to the CC whether it is calling themselves Catholic (as the Church does), attending Christmas and Easter, or what have you. Peace be with you and God bless.
I agree with you. Being baptized at 6 weeks and being confirmed before you were a teen helped form you as a young adult. You know the saying - ā€œonce a Catholic, always a Catholic!ā€ Peace be with you too!
 
As yet I am not convinced of Anglicanism’ exclusion from the greater tradition that links Rome and Constantinople together.
Cradle Episcopalian, here, and I’m not convinced of this either.
 
So your authority rests with your minister? She may be conservative but what happens when she moves on and you get a liberal gay minister that celebrates gay marriage?
This sounds a lot like the argument I’ve heard attributed to C.S. Lewis, that if he converted to Catholicism, he’d be required to believe everything the RCC would teach in the future. Which he couldn’t do. And I’m paraphrasing, btw.
 
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