Episcopalian Vs. Catholic?

[Dempsey1919]

I care not a whit about your assumptions about the Episcopal church.

“Assumptions about the Episcopal Church?” I didn’t make any assumptions about the Episcopal Church. I stated verifiable facts! You cannot refute the truth.

I was referring to your statements of alleged fact about the Holy Spirit being more fully in the Roman church than in others.

I simply reiterated Catholic doctrine. As a Catholic, I believe that the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church. However, I also affirm that other religions also contain elements of truth. The Holy Spirit is at work in other religions because the Holy Spirit is the author of all truth.

The Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of salvific truth. The Catholic religion is the true religion of God. All other religions are a mixture of error and truth.

I guess I do think your tone is most argumentative and not inclined to foster friendly dialog but is pejorative in nature. I have nothing more to say frankly. I have no desire to refute your statements since I don’t feel any need to defend my faith at all. It is flawed like every faith, since we have not the fullness of understanding.

How has my tone been argumentative? I have been forthright in my assertions but I don’t think I have been disrespectful. I have stated Catholic doctrine in a direct manner. I have told no lies about the Episcopal Church. I have not distorted the truth. Does my directness offend you?

The Catholic faith is not flawed. We may not fully understand the faith, but the Sacred Deposit of Faith is perfectly complete. Nothing is missing, and nothing needs to be added. Christ was the complete Revelation of God. He gave his Church the complete truth necessary for Salvation.

I do not hate the Episcopal Church. I know that the Episcopal Church has many beautiful elements of truth, but I also know that they have rejected the fullness of the Apostolic faith.

Everyone believes their own religion is true and I am no different. It shouldn’t offend you if a Catholic believes that the Catholic religion is true. It doesn’t offend me if a Muslim says that Islam is the one true religion. He is simply stating his belief and I respect him for doing so.

 

[grandfather]

Now you are just being condescending. We are not in error as we see it, but rather we humbly suggest you might be. We do not want any such authority as you put it. We believe God graced humans with brains and reason for a REASON, and to turn over all thinking authority to a group or person would be a horrible wrong. That is what we think. At the same time, we respect that you think otherwise and we are happy to work with you despite our differences. As soon as you can be civil and respectful, we can begin.

At Lambeth Cdl Kasper was invited to address the Anglican assembly. Rowan Williams asked him what kind of Anglican Church Rome wanted to see, a very odd question. Anglicanism is at war with itself. They don’t know that men can not marry men. They are debating it. They do not know that women can not be bishops or priests, but they have them. They are in chaos. Kasper asked how was the Catholic Church supposed to have a dialogue. With which faction should we begin discussion?

So the statement “we would be happy to work with you despite our differences”, after you learn to be respectful, once again confounds any rational mind. It is another “entirely separate while in communion” bit of illogic. Yet the people who come up with this see no contradiction.

With whom should Catholics have any discussion, Shori, Robinson? Do you expect anyone to take them and the people who support their farce seriously? They hold legitimate offices and titles recognized by the Anglican body. Kasper politely, but forthrightly told Lambeth, go get your act together.

When this bizarre bunch tries to claim they are Catholic and expects Catholics to accept that they are whistling in the wind. If they want to be Catholic they can be Catholic. Nothing can stop them, but that is not what they want. They want to continue to pretend. Their forebears tortured Catholics and Catholic priests to death for being Catholic.

You expect us to respect you so you can work with us while you are disintegrating internally over whether men can marry men and perverts can be bishops and June brides?

Robinson addressed a packed house at Lambeth. He was broadly cheered. This is a circus. It is a disgrace.

Catholics can’t help. They can only watch in dismay.

 

[Peter_J]

At Lambeth Cdl Kasper was invited to address the Anglican assembly. Rowan Williams asked him what kind of Anglican Church Rome wanted to see, a very odd question.

What an odd question! That Williams guy must have some kind of funny imagination, eh?

 

[grandfather]

What an odd question! That Williams guy must have some kind of funny imagination, eh?

This particular statement was grasping at a straw in desparation.
I read quite a few of his statements. He was trying to do the impossible, hold together in some imaginery religious union, groups who no longer have anything in common, other than historical ties. His statements were incoherent. He was and is irrelevant. His church is disintegrated. All that is left are the trappings, the robes and titles and buildings. It is an empty edifice. The whole thing is tragic.

 

[Wonderboo]

Background: I’m Episcopalian. Went to Catholic University, have a degree in Catholic Theology and am an early church historian… not to brag just saying I know my stuff

I state them as truths because I believe them to be true. I have written nothing that cannot be proven. What have I written that is untrue about the Episcopal Church?

Do you deny that the Episcopal Church traces its roots to the Anglican Church which was founded by King Henry VIII?

The Claim of the Episcopal Church is that its roots are much older than the Anglican Church. In fact we claim the same Early Traditions as the Romans. While there is a clear break that does not deny that the Episcopal Church can show earlier roots.

Who is the undisputed leader of the Episcopal Church? The Archbishop of Canterbury is not the supreme leader; he is the first among equals. The Anglican Communion does not have an absolute leader. Does the Episcopal Church?

No, it does not. Well at least not the way you’re thinking. Anglicans/Episcopalians as a rule look to the local bishop for practical leadership and tradition for spiritual leadership.

Do you deny that the Episcopal Church changes its doctrines over time? They changed their stance on contraception, female ordination, homosexuality, and homosexual “marriage.”

The sarcastic Episcopalian in me wants to say that you can’t change what you don’t have . The truth of the matter is Episcopalians do not view the things you’ve mentioned as fundamental to the faith and are therefore able to be changed, much like the wording of the Mass can be changed (I know bad example but I hope you get the idea).

In my previous posts, I have simply stated Catholic doctrine regarding the foundation of the Church, Petrine Primacy, Papal Infallability, Development of Doctrine, and Apostolic Succession. I also stated the Catholic beliefs concerning the status of Anglican Holy Orders.

I challenge you to refute any of the points I raised. You may not like the tone of my writing, but I think you will find that I have been truthful.

It is worth understanding at the end of all of this that the nature of the Episcopal beast is that there are people like myself who are not Catholic for non theological reasons and then there are Episcopalians who deny the Real Presence. This does speak to problems with the Episcopal church that I will be happy to discuss with anyone who so wishes but it is also to show that when asking how the Episcopalians differ from the Roman Catholics the real question must first be “which Episcopalians”

 

[TriuneUnity]

What an odd question! That Williams guy must have some kind of funny imagination, eh?

He’s a few crumpets short of an afternoon tea, eh wot.

 

[mvoisinet]

The word Catholic means universal.The Catholic Church is The True Church Of Jesus Christ established 2000 years ago by Jesus Christ Himself with St.Peter as it’s first pope.The Catholic Church has 4 identifying marks:It is One,It is Holy,It is Catholic and it is Apostolic.

 

[Peter_J]

This particular statement was grasping at a straw in desparation.
I read quite a few of his statements. He was trying to do the impossible, hold together in some imaginery religious union, groups who no longer have anything in common, other than historical ties. His statements were incoherent. He was and is irrelevant. His church is disintegrated. All that is left are the trappings, the robes and titles and buildings. It is an empty edifice. The whole thing is tragic.

Geez, Harry! Don’t leave me hanging by a thread! Give it to me straight! Let me know where I stand!

 

[emeraldcoast]

Background: I’m Episcopalian. Went to Catholic University, have a degree in Catholic Theology and am an early church historian… not to brag just saying I know my stuff

The Claim of the Episcopal Church is that its roots are much older than the Anglican Church. In fact we claim the same Early Traditions as the Romans. While there is a clear break that does not deny that the Episcopal Church can show earlier roots.

No, it does not. Well at least not the way you’re thinking. Anglicans/Episcopalians as a rule look to the local bishop for practical leadership and tradition for spiritual leadership.

The sarcastic Episcopalian in me wants to say that you can’t change what you don’t have . The truth of the matter is Episcopalians do not view the things you’ve mentioned as fundamental to the faith and are therefore able to be changed, much like the wording of the Mass can be changed (I know bad example but I hope you get the idea).

It is worth understanding at the end of all of this that the nature of the Episcopal beast is that there are people like myself who are not Catholic for non theological reasons and then there are Episcopalians who deny the Real Presence. This does speak to problems with the Episcopal church that I will be happy to discuss with anyone who so wishes but it is also to show that when asking how the Episcopalians differ from the Roman Catholics the real question must first be “which Episcopalians”

Welcome to the forum!

God Bless!

 

[GKC]

Background: I’m Episcopalian. Went to Catholic University, have a degree in Catholic Theology and am an early church historian… not to brag just saying I know my stuff

The Claim of the Episcopal Church is that its roots are much older than the Anglican Church. In fact we claim the same Early Traditions as the Romans. While there is a clear break that does not deny that the Episcopal Church can show earlier roots.

No, it does not. Well at least not the way you’re thinking. Anglicans/Episcopalians as a rule look to the local bishop for practical leadership and tradition for spiritual leadership.

The sarcastic Episcopalian in me wants to say that you can’t change what you don’t have . The truth of the matter is Episcopalians do not view the things you’ve mentioned as fundamental to the faith and are therefore able to be changed, much like the wording of the Mass can be changed (I know bad example but I hope you get the idea).

It is worth understanding at the end of all of this that the nature of the Episcopal beast is that there are people like myself who are not Catholic for non theological reasons and then there are Episcopalians who deny the Real Presence. This does speak to problems with the Episcopal church that I will be happy to discuss with anyone who so wishes but it is also to show that when asking how the Episcopalians differ from the Roman Catholics the real question must first be “which Episcopalians”

A point I try to make frequently. Usually in the more generic form “which Anglicans”.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[grandfather]

No, it does not. Well at least not the way you’re thinking. Anglicans/Episcopalians as a rule look to the local bishop for practical leadership and tradition for spiritual leadership.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** was founded by King Henry VIII, who went through seven wives**

Only six. Don’t make things worse than they are.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Background: I’m Episcopalian. Went to Catholic University, have a degree in Catholic Theology and am an early church historian… not to brag just saying I know my stuff

The Claim of the Episcopal Church is that its roots are much older than the Anglican Church. In fact we claim the same Early Traditions as the Romans. While there is a clear break that does not deny that the Episcopal Church can show earlier roots.

No, it does not. Well at least not the way you’re thinking. Anglicans/Episcopalians as a rule look to the local bishop for practical leadership and tradition for spiritual leadership.

The sarcastic Episcopalian in me wants to say that you can’t change what you don’t have . **The truth of the matter is Episcopalians do not view the things you’ve mentioned as fundamental to the faith and are therefore able to be changed, **much like the wording of the Mass can be changed (I know bad example but I hope you get the idea).

It is worth understanding at the end of all of this that the nature of the Episcopal beast is that there are people like myself who are not Catholic for non theological reasons and then there are Episcopalians who deny the Real Presence. This does speak to problems with the Episcopal church that I will be happy to discuss with anyone who so wishes but it is also to show that when asking how the Episcopalians differ from the Roman Catholics the real question must first be “which Episcopalians”

As a life long Catholic who has also studied theology, I find your posts very interesting.

I admit that I question the weighting of issues in the Catholic Church. In my opinion, based on what I’ve studied, the most important things for a Catholic to believe and defend are theological in nature. According to many in the Church, including many bishops, the most important things for a Catholic to believe are that abortion is evil, gay marriage is evil, stem cell research is evil. I’m not suggesting that those things aren’t evil, but are they really more important than the Real Presence?? Are they really more important than the Gospel of Jesus??

Just one person’s opinion, as always “your mileage may vary”

 

[bpbasilphx]

The eminent Anglican scholar, Dom Gregory Dix of Nashdom Abbey, whose SHAPE OF THE LITURGY affected liturgical reform in both the Roman and Anglican liturgies said the following two things about Anglican bishops:

1. I really don’t see why you should be surprised at the conduct of your fathers-in-God. After all the sign of a Bishop is a crook and of an Archbishop a double-cross.
2. In explaining his oft repeated description of the bishops as Edwardian, he commented “Strictly Edward VI in theology; strictly Edward VII in mental equipment and strictly Edward VIII in their views on marriage”.

 

[GKC]

** was founded by King Henry VIII, who went through seven wives**

Only six. Don’t make things worse than they are.

I’ve mentioned that. In fact, he only went through 5 of them. Catherine Parr outlived him. And, to be even more precise, one died in childbirth.

GKC

 

[Janet_S]

According to many in the Church, including many bishops, the most important things for a Catholic to believe are that abortion is evil, gay marriage is evil, stem cell research is evil. I’m not suggesting that those things aren’t evil, but are they really more important than the Real Presence?? Are they really more important than the Gospel of Jesus??

The Catholic Church is all about balance. The bishops speak out on these issues (gay marriage, abortion, embryonic stem cell manipulation) at this point of time in history because the worship of sex is the most popular heresy at the moment. If there comes a time when Catholics become too puritanical, the bishops will speak out on that too.

Every age has its favorite heresy, and this is reflected in the writings of the Church leaders at any given time.

 

[AlexiaMusing]

At Lambeth Cdl Kasper was invited to address the Anglican assembly. Rowan Williams asked him what kind of Anglican Church Rome wanted to see, a very odd question. Anglicanism is at war with itself. They don’t know that men can not marry men. They are debating it. They do not know that women can not be bishops or priests, but they have them. They are in chaos. Kasper asked how was the Catholic Church supposed to have a dialogue. With which faction should we begin discussion?

So the statement “we would be happy to work with you despite our differences”, after you learn to be respectful, once again confounds any rational mind. It is another “entirely separate while in communion” bit of illogic. Yet the people who come up with this see no contradiction.

With whom should Catholics have any discussion, Shori, Robinson? Do you expect anyone to take them and the people who support their farce seriously? They hold legitimate offices and titles recognized by the Anglican body. Kasper politely, but forthrightly told Lambeth, go get your act together.

When this bizarre bunch tries to claim they are Catholic and expects Catholics to accept that they are whistling in the wind. If they want to be Catholic they can be Catholic. Nothing can stop them, but that is not what they want. They want to continue to pretend. Their forebears tortured Catholics and Catholic priests to death for being Catholic.

You expect us to respect you so you can work with us while you are disintegrating internally over whether men can marry men and perverts can be bishops and June brides?

Robinson addressed a packed house at Lambeth. He was broadly cheered. This is a circus. It is a disgrace.

Catholics can’t help. They can only watch in dismay.

As we dismay of much in your faith sir. We are in debate on many things, but so are you whether you admit it or not. We are blessed with the right and ability to freely discuss our faith. That is what we wish. Many of us believe that God’s grace extends to all people in all states, not just those who adhere to man-made laws of morality. I don’t object to anyone believing what they will, but to tell others they are wrong is both rude, unfair, untrue, and designed to forment disagreement rather than friendship and a working relationship.

 

[grandfather]

As we dismay of much in your faith sir. We are in debate on many things, but so are you whether you admit it or not. We are blessed with the right and ability to freely discuss our faith. That is what we wish. Many of us believe that God’s grace extends to all people in all states, not just those who adhere to man-made laws of morality. I don’t object to anyone believing what they will, but to tell others they are wrong is both rude, unfair, untrue, and designed to forment disagreement rather than friendship and a working relationship.

That sounds very Episcopalian. No one is wrong, or right, and saying otherwise is rude. What do you think about God’s laws of morality? Do they exist? Are they knowable? Does He reveal them to us? I guess anyone or Church that says they know them is rude, unfair and untrue?

 

[Wonderboo]

So if you lived in Vermont, Gene Robinson would be your spiritual leader. As you go from one Episcopal bishop to another you will find contradicting teaching, one from another, on a variety of issues. Which should you believe? How do you know truth if your leaders teach differently, from place to place?

No, I’m saying that for the practical, day to day running of Vermont the people look to Bishop Robinson (who by the way knew he was gay and elected him anyway, it isn’t an issue for them in the running of their local churches). Further, like I said spiritual leadership is not found in one person, it is found in the Traditions and traditions of the Church.

Of course. And this makes it impossible to have a Catholic-Episcopal/Anglican discussion. There is no defined Episcopal position. They don’t know what they believe. It is up to each person to decide what he believes, decide what truth is for himself. This is classical Protestantism. There can be no unity, even on something as fundamental as men marry women.

Alright so I’ve been running this whole thing by my husband (a Roman Catholic) who’s theological background is in Episcopalian/Catholic relations and he brought up something that I feel is worth mentioning. He said that Episcopalians are backwards looking. That is we always look to the Early Church for leadership (look we can get into that one too if you really want ). Okay so now for how that fits in:
There can be a Catholic/Episcopal discussion, it just has to start in a place most Catholics don’t like starting, the past. If you want to know why Episcopalians do what they do you have to be very comfortable with the Early Church. The reason many Episcopalians have so many different views is because they don’t see it having mattered before so why does it now. I know that many Catholics view things like gay marriage as important, and they may very well be important issues but they aren’t viewed as formative and fundamental because the Early Christians didn’t care.

Further and most importantly I feel that the discussion between Catholics and Episcopalians can happen and ought to happen around the issues we have in common. We have a long history in common, there is much unity on many points that have been over looked for things like gay marriage and women. There is unity, it just may be more fundamental then a lot of people think

 

[jduffey]

So, I , a Catholic, was just engaged to my girlfriend, an Episcopal. We are beginning to plan our wedding, wondering how to work out the officiants. We are both dedicated to our faiths and also to each other. We have discussed conversion and know that neither is ready, but might be possibile in the future. For now and for the wedding, she would prefer to marry in an Episcopal church, hoping that we can go through marriage counseling within both churches and have a Catholic priest present to officiate with the Episcopal priest. confusing, I know.

I think this can be done, but a question remains about the order of the liturgies and what can be done for the Liturgy of the Eucharist, how communion happens, catholics and episcopalians present together, etc, etc. Very confusing, and I wanted to have some idea before we went out to talk to both of our churches.