Episcopalian Vs. Catholic?

[Peter_J]

jesusluv and frej,

You make a good point. The decision to ordain Bp. Robinson wasn’t made by the Episcopal Church, USA, as a whole, but rather by one particular diocese.

But even with that, I still must say that it’s bit a disturbing how much support that decision has received within the ECUSA. I’m just glad that most of the other provinces in the Anglican Communion opposed it, and that some in the ECUSA have sought to align themselves with more conservative provinces.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I did incorrectly identify Henry, not enough "I"s.

Well you probably didn’t want to sound egotistical.

 

[GKC]

GKC
No offense taken! You are correct, a number of positions have been taken by many Anglicans. When a group prides itself on living out its faith through scripture, tradition, reason, and experience tensions will arise and differing positions will form. Again, I’m not a church historian, nor theologian; merely a country priest seeking to serve the LORD. I wrestle with these same issues constantly and welcome diologue with others who will respect both my searching and the manner I have chosen.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, I left the church after leaving minor seminary. My reason is that no one would allow me to ask questins and when I did I was dismissed without being provided a substantive response. The Anglo-catholic form of the faith allows me to engage rational discussion.

Yes, I did incorrectly identify Henry, not enough "I"s. It is Henry VIII, and his story is fascinating as is the story of many of the Popes who have served the See of Rome!

frej

Not to worry. It’s happened before.

Hank is a hobby of mine. Fascinating train wreck, he was.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[TriuneUnity]

Not to worry. It’s happened before.

Hank is a hobby of mine. Fascinating train wreck, he was.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

More like battleship wreck.

 

[GKC]

I haven’t read this book, but I’ve heard about it. It’s written by a Catholic historian, Eamon Duffy. If you’re interested in the history of the Catholic Church in England, you might want to read this book, The Stripping of the Altars:

books.google.com/books?id=K48k6JIcPrUC&dq=Dr+Eamon+Duffy&pg=PP1&ots=HoiirLTrQI&sig=SHnvd7W5BEo9e4mcXjiq594uZ0s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR8,M1

It is a very good book.

And I recommend, as a companion, J. J. Scarisbrick’s magnificent bio, HENRY VIII. Helps to give you a grasp of the whole impediment/annulment/dispensation game as it was routinely played in Henry’s day.

GKC

 

[GKC]

More like battleship wreck.

He did build some fine floating fortresses, at that.

GKC

 

[TriuneUnity]

He did build some fine floating fortresses, at that.

GKC

He was a floating fortress.

 

[GKC]

He was a floating fortress.

Toward the end, I doubt he would have floated in the Great Salt Lake.

GKC

 

[TriuneUnity]

Toward the end, I doubt he would have floated in the Great Salt Lake.

GKC

hahaha

Have you bothered to watch the Showtime series the Tudors?

 

[GKC]

hahaha

Have you bothered to watch the Showtime series the Tudors?

I watched about 30 minutes of one show.

I wasn’t impressed. I’d rather do my reading.

GKC

 

[grandfather]

Thank you for that post frej. Sadly, it will mostly fall on deaf ears. Yes, a state in the United States of America decided to consecrate an openly gay man bishop. That bishop has nothing to do with the Episcopalians in Alabama, TN, Colorado, etc. It is set up much more like the Orthodox is than the Roman church. Again, out of one side of the RC mouth you hear “they can’t make decisions because there is no head”, and the other side “that one state ordained a gay bishop, so obviously the entire episcopal church came together and approved it”.

Are the Episcopalians in Alabama, TN, Colorado, etc. in communion with those in VT and Shori or not? Did those Episcopalians in Alabama, TN, Colorado, etc. accept Shori as a consecrated bishop and in her leadership and title among all the other Episcipal bishops or not? Do they have ceremonies for homosexual couples, priestesses?

A number of posts ago someone said these are complicated matters and their church will sort them out. It takes time. It might take a hundred years, but they will get figured out. They have been figured out for 2,000 years. There is no confusion.

 

[kaygee]

You make a good point. The decision to ordain Bp. Robinson wasn’t made by the Episcopal Church, USA, as a whole, but rather by one particular diocese.

But even with that, I still must say that it’s bit a disturbing how much support that decision has received within the ECUSA. I’m just glad that most of the other provinces in the Anglican Communion opposed it, and that some in the ECUSA have sought to align themselves with more conservative provinces.

Actually, the decision to ordain Bp. Robinson could not have been made without the active consent of a majority of the ECUSA bishops and their dioceses. The ship is seriously listing to port and taking on water fast. Person the lifeboats!

 

[grandfather]

We are loosely associated in the Anglican Communion with no true hierarchical structure. Whether this is a bad thing is open for debate. However, it is what it is.

This structure inevitably leads to a mishmash of practice and doctrine with no unity and eventually rupture as is unfolding right now.

Honestly, I would rather be allowed to make my own choices rather than be dictated to. I believe that the Holy Spirit acts within each member of the church and it is for each individual to speak as guided by the Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit guided each member of the Church we would all agree. God would not tell one person abortion is murder and another that it is a moral act, for example. God would not tell one person homosexuals can marry and another person that their behavior will lead them to hell. If you honor scripture and tradition as you claim tell me where in scripture it says that the Holy Spirit guides each individual and the Church is not given the authority to teach and protection in her dioctrine.

As to doing our own thing in the face of opposition by others, I believe Jesus was accused of the same behavior by the Sadduccees and Pharissees!

So this justifies each individuals actions, behavior and personal doctrine no matter what they are or how absurd. Good grief!

Our liturgy for Baptism asks every member of the church to strive for justice and respect the dignity of every human being. It is through God’s help that we live into our baptismal covenant.

What does that have to do with resolving conflict, the conflict that is internally going on in the Anglican world today? How does that help you?

I don’t expect you to agree with our position, but I do ask that you respect the process we have established as we respect that which exists in the Roman and Orthodox tradition.

frej

Respect has nothing to do with it. A process needs to work. The question is does your process work? It does not matter what any outsider like me thinks of it. Does it work? Will it keep you all in your loose association? Will it lead souls to heaven? You have a war going on. The reason for it is faulty process. Does it mean that someone does not respect you or your process if they think it is going to lead to disaster?

 

[AlexiaMusing]

When the Titanic is sinking you can rearrange the deck chairs and keep the band playing (keep the crumpets on the table) or you can find a lifeboat. That is strong language, but if it is true it is also a charitable warning. When the ship is sinking mincing words won’t help. If the ship is sinking, being silent will not help and denying it will not help. The Anglican ship is foundering and breaking up. That was inevitable. If that is true it has to be made clear. It is full of souls dear to God. They need life jackets and boats and rescue. Making believe all is well is cruel.

Its leadership is so lost that it can not figure out and come to agreement that men marry women. It does not get any more ludicrous. These men are supposed to be shepherds of souls. They are the blind misleading the blind. Call it what it is. Please end this farce. How can it be sugar coated? Cardinal Kasper all but said you can not expect us to take you seriously. You can not expect serious dialogue until you come back to sanity.

That is only mean spirited if it is not true.

You use this as an excuse to be meanspirited and venomous in your speech. Your assumptions as to what is proper are you own and you have no basis for claiming right except that you accept it as right. I find your behavior horrifically uncharitable and so totally unChristian as to be a farce of its own.

 

[AlexiaMusing]

DANGER RANT FOLLOWS:

I would like to think I know what I’m talking about when it comes to my faith. I would also like to think that I don’t view my faith with rose colored glasses. That being the case:
1: I know the Episcopal church/Anglican Church has its issues, find me a church that does not. I know that ours have been brought to the forefront thanks to some news stories, nevertheless others have issues too.
2: Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians have dialogue all the time, it happens when people that come with a true and loving interest in the conversation happen. Look, if the Pope and the ABC can do it, surely we can to.
3: I know that everyone likes to be right, I know the Romans believe with their whole being that they have the fullness of the Faith, thats great, no one wants to take that away from you. No one wants you to not believe your faith. However, you have to meet us half way, you have to put that aside if you want a real conversation. Know you’re right, thats fine, just know we think we are too, the conversation should never become who’s right/who’s wrong but rather…how can we we together grow in the Love of Christ.
4: I went Catholic school, married a Catholic man, go to Mass with him, I love the Roman Catholic Church almost as much mine however it is because of people like the few mean spirited people here that make me so glad to have Church who’s sign says “all are welcome”. I never use to understand why protestants hated Catholics so much…thank you for helping me understand
5: You’ve all said you aren’t being mean spirited, its just the truth we (episcopalians/anglicans are just wrong and you want to bring us to the truth…while again I respect your wanting to share with us, be nice about it. We aren’t going on about the awful parts of the Catholic church and what doesn’t work so why do you do it with us.
6: Anglicans/Episcopalians and the Romans can have discussions that can be are respectful…it forces both sides to accept that we aren’t going to change peoples minds if their hearts are hardened, and being rude hardens peoples hearts.
7: There are so many wonderful people on here, thank you for being wonderful and kind and open to discussion…I just needed to rant…thank you for letting me.
8: FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY THERE IS MORE TO MY CHURCH THEN GAY PEOPLE!!!

End rant

Well said indeed. For a church who has its own very disgusting issues with sex, I should think we might avoid these subjects and discourse on those things we share, which are mighty indeed. If ever the RCC wanted a group to drive away people, they should come here and read some of these posts. It is truly horrific.

 

[grandfather]

]May I point out that there are Anglicans who disagree with many of these points. And have left the communion because of that. No offesne Father. But what you hold is not what all Anglicans hold.

So how does anyone know what Anglicans believe? They disagree with one another on what they believe. Their bishops can not come to an agreement on what they believe. There is no teaching authority to define what they believe. Each person is led by the Holy Spirit to his personal belief system is kind of crazy, but some think it works that way. Can women be ordained? Can men marry men? Is abortion evil? What do Anglicans believe about this and other important stuff? The answer is there is no way of telling.

 

[Peter_J]

If ever the RCC wanted a group to drive away people, they should come here and read some of these posts. It is truly horrific.

Hardly a day goes by that I don’t worry what kind of impression of Catholicism is being given by Catholic bloggers and posters.

 

[grandfather]

jesusluv and frej,

You make a good point. The decision to ordain Bp. Robinson wasn’t made by the Episcopal Church, USA, as a whole, but rather by one particular diocese.

But even with that, I still must say that it’s bit a disturbing how much support that decision has received within the ECUSA. I’m just glad that most of the other provinces in the Anglican Communion opposed it, and that some in the ECUSA have sought to align themselves with more conservative provinces.

The “process” has been followed and the product of the process is Anglican Bp. Robinson. There was no way within Anglicanism as it is set up to stop the action, or any other action no matter how many other provinces disapprove of it. Suppose some group within the communion decided that they would do something really bizarre and the majority disapproved of it. Fifty years ago what has taken place recently would have been considered really bizarre. If someone is the duly elected authority in Oz then there is nothing to do about it other than disagree with it. Suppose someone said that deformed children should be euthanized and the local duly elected bishop supported it and a considerable minority elsewhere did as well. Pick an issue. The issue is not relevant. It is the process that is the problem, the mechanism of church governance.

 

[jesusluv]

This is becoming, very quickly, a shining example of the so called “Apologetics” on this site. Instead of defending your own faith, after being attacked, it is simply attacking disguised as defending the faith.

Trying my hardest to prove how wrong Muslims, Hindu, JW’s, Mormons, Protestants, etc. are does NOT make my faith any more true. It is frankily, very Pharisaical to do this. Standing back with my “fullness of truth” and telling every person that walks by how wrong they are and this is why does nothing but make me look just like the Pharisee that was thanking God for not making him like the wretch beating his chest and pleading for forgiveness beside him.

Now, to the Episopalians. Assuming that everyone that doesn’t agree with decisions like the consecration of Gene Robinson is just going to stay and shut their mouth, is unwarranted. There is a sizeable breakoff going on right now with GAFCON over this extremely liberal shift. GAFCON consists of right at 25% of the AC’s bishops. This doesn’t count those existing breakoffs like the Traditional Anglican Communion and the “continuing” anglicans.

You are correct in repeating over and over that there is no head man in charge. I actually respect the way things are done there, whether it is flawed or not. You have a combination of clergy and lay people that make most of the decisions.

 

[frej]

Thank you for posting items which help build the body of Christ. I personally appreciate comments and suggestions such as these! The book selections are excellent!

As expressed by Paul in 2 Cor 10:8, the Lord has given that which is necessary “for building you up and not tearing you down.” It is our Christian duty to build up each other in the body of Christ. The result of which will be the coming of the Kingdom on Earth and the glory of God as manifested to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bless all who build up the Body!

FrEJ