Episcopalian vs. Catholic

[blazerdave]

Haha yes I definitely like Dune. And the movie adaptation was my first exposure to the great St. Patrick Stewart!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Between being Picard, Gurney, and Professor Xavier, the man should be sainted, maybe even Pope! That’s a sci fi holy trinity I can accept any day of the week! X Men, Dune, Trek TNG…oh yeah! Drink it down…

Haha yes I definitely like Dune. And the movie adaptation was my first exposure to the great St. Patrick Stewart!

 

[GKC]

Thanks, Blazer. GKC and I are pretty cool dudes LOL…just kidding. Are you a Dune fan?

Whaddu mean…just kidding?

GKC

 

[GKC]

Many thanks, sir. And might I add that you and Gurney have the coolest usernames that I have seen thusfar

Agree, agree, and agree. Did I mention that I agree? The openness isn’t everywhere, but it’s certainly growing at an accelerating pace. It’s usually accompanied by an open disdain for those who oppose it. And if all the theologically orthodox leave our ranks, it will be everywhere within just a few years.

You are most kind. My name, of course, is related to my hobby (for around 45 years) of reading, studying, and collecting Gilbert Chesterton (among a whole lot of other things I do that with).

Gurney and I have had discussions about Dune.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Blazer…Yeah I’m trying to get good ole’ GKC to like Dune but he’s too busy studying atom bombs, Roy’s comics, aircraft, Henry VIII’s marital meltdowns, and Hobbitry. He just won’t accept my sandworms or the spice!

GKC has many interests, GKC just sounded best. There are no good screen names for Henry VIII, apostolicae curae, or hiroshima…

I’m kiddin’, GKC is the best, the Gandalf of CAF! He was here long before moi!

You are most kind. My name, of course, is related to my hobby (for around 45 years) of reading, studying, and collecting Gilbert Chesterton (among a whole lot of other things I do that with).

Gurney and I have had discussions about Dune.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Blazer…Yeah I’m trying to get good ole’ GKC to like Dune but he’s too busy studying atom bombs, Roy’s comics, aircraft, Henry VIII’s marital meltdowns, and Hobbitry. He just won’t accept my sandworms or the spice!

GKC has many interests, GKC just sounded best. There are no good screen names for Henry VIII, apostolicae curae, or hiroshima…

I’m kiddin’, GKC is the best, the Gandalf of CAF! He was here long before moi!

How about Horny Hank?

And, as you know, SF is among my favorite hobbies. Not Herbert, though. Try my buddies Jack McDevitt or Gene Wolfe.

GKC

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

But let us note, in passing, that Episcopalians are not members of the Church of England.

GKC

Indeed not. But are they not still in the Anglican Communion, with a legitimate claim to being “Anglican”? Or are we to assume that Anglicans now want none of Episcopalians, given their teachings?

Some observers have suggested that the TEC presiding bishop is positioning that body to be a fully separate and independent international denomination, with all the national flags that were put up at their least general convention. BUt that would just add to, not subtract from, their differences from things Catholic, adding to the differences they already appropriated from Anglicanism, the tenets of which, at least in their beginnings, they espoused. Remember: When they wanted their own bishops ordained after independence, they went to a Scottish protestant, not a Catholic.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[GKC]

I fear some of the AC does not mind the company it keeps. But even so, no one in the Communion has a relationship to the Sovereign, as Supreme Governor of the CoE, or what she may or may not say. In fact, I know a lot of folks in the CoE who don’t pay it much attention, either, particularly those in Forward in Faith- UK.

They went where they could find apostolic succession, who would consecrate +Seabury, as the Bishop of London would not, for erastian reasons; they went to the Non-Jurors. Who were not themselves in communion with the CoE.

GKC

Indeed not. But are they not still in the Anglican Communion, with a legitimate claim to being “Anglican”? Or are we to assume that Anglicans now want none of Episcopalians, given their teachings?

Some observers have suggested that the TEC presiding bishop is positioning that body to be a fully separate and independent international denomination, with all the national flags that were put up at their least general convention. BUt that would just add to, not subtract from, their differences from things Catholic, adding to the differences they already appropriated from Anglicanism, the tenets of which, at least in their beginnings, they espoused. Remember: When they wanted their own bishops ordained after independence, they went to a Scottish protestant, not a Catholic.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[lutherlic]

You have to make sure that you agree with the theology of the Catholic Church thoroughly before signing up. Have you considered conservative Anglican parishes? Make sure you agree with, as GKC calls them, the “particulars” of the catechism of the Church before making a commitment.

I respectfully disagree on this one - at least on the ambiguity of “signing up”.

Certainly you must accept Catholic theology prior to confirmation, but that is at the very end of the RCIA process. Inquiry allows people to get a basic overview of our faith and decide if they wish to explore further. RCIA gives them the time and instruction to learn more and to have a conversion of heart.

There is no commitment until confirmation and no need to back away prematurely.

beegirl - I recommend against shopping for a faith based upon what you think you believe. Learning more about Catholicism may open your eyes to the Church our Lord and Savior founded. Our faith is not constantly shifting and our Magisterium has legitimate authority. It is worth the effort to seriously explore.

 

[GKC]

I respectfully disagree on this one - at least on the ambiguity of “signing up”.

Certainly you must accept Catholic theology prior to confirmation, but that is at the very end of the RCIA process. Inquiry allows people to get a basic overview of our faith and decide if they wish to explore further. RCIA gives them the time and instruction to learn more and to have a conversion of heart.

There is no commitment until confirmation and no need to back away prematurely.

beegirl - I recommend against shopping for a faith based upon what you think you believe. Learning more about Catholicism may open your eyes to the Church our Lord and Savior founded. Our faith is not constantly shifting and our Magisterium has legitimate authority. It is worth the effort to seriously explore.

I agree. But, after exploring, eventually, one must decide.

GKC

 

[MarkBrown]

But to answer the original question, the place where I’m at would probably seem 90-95% oldschool Catholic to you in terms of practice. Very High Church, lots of reverence, belief in Real Presence, kneeling at the altar for Communion, etc. We even oppose abortion - a shocking statement from an Episcopal church. The other Anglican options where I live are basically evangelical/emergent church plants, so we can either hold out as long as possible or put “Rome” in our Mapquest. It’s tough to be an Anglo-Catholic or a “sorta Catholic” Protestant these days…our time seems to have ended, but a few parishes never got the memo. We covet your prayers!

Dave,

When one door is closed, God opens another. A copy of the memo can be read www.vatican.va/holy_father Best part, no swimming required! B16 has built a bridge.

Fr. Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

Between being Picard, Gurney, and Professor Xavier, the man should be sainted, maybe even Pope! That’s a sci fi holy trinity I can accept any day of the week! X Men, Dune, Trek TNG…oh yeah! Drink it down…

Picard…bah…phooy young wet behind the ears laddie!

Can’t hold a match to Kirk, T.J. Hooker and the Negotiator!

Kirk was a man’s man…never saw him cry…condemned to an ice planet prison on trump
up charges…must have been orthodox episcopalian…he get’s into a fight and quickly links up with the only woman there…ok pansexual…but he was hookwinked I tell ya!
No waxing on “can’t we all just get along!”

Though Picard did get better after running into the Borg!

Fr. Mark

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Lutherlic,
Of course the RCIA process is not a one-time “sign-up.” That was not my intention to paint it that way. I simply meant joining up as a Catholic. At some point one does become a Catholic in that RCIA process, at the end on Easter Vigil. I am simply saying, and perhaps I said it poorly, that a person should thoroughly investigate Catholicism before becoming one. My personal experience was terrible at RCIA. I’m self-taught, trust me. RCIA in 1993 was a pathetic mess at my parish. And the way my parish is, it’s probably not much better now. My catechesis came from my own investigation into the history, theology, praxis, and overall catechism of the Catholic Church, not from RCIA.

I respectfully disagree on this one - at least on the ambiguity of “signing up”.

Certainly you must accept Catholic theology prior to confirmation, but that is at the very end of the RCIA process. Inquiry allows people to get a basic overview of our faith and decide if they wish to explore further. RCIA gives them the time and instruction to learn more and to have a conversion of heart.

There is no commitment until confirmation and no need to back away prematurely.

beegirl - I recommend against shopping for a faith based upon what you think you believe. Learning more about Catholicism may open your eyes to the Church our Lord and Savior founded. Our faith is not constantly shifting and our Magisterium has legitimate authority. It is worth the effort to seriously explore.

 

[manualman]

Those curious about actual catholicism (as opposed to the many modern / American corruptions) can find a superb introductory in the Didache Series. Google “Midwest Theological Forum”. Unbelievably good stuff, written for ‘regular’ folks and well doused in awesome catholic art to boot. Designed to be used as high school level theology textbooks in America (where you can’t assume that your students can name the persons of the Holy Trinity before starting the course…).

 

[blazerdave]

Good words all! Thanks for the thoughts and advice (and for bearing with this soul-searching Anglican forum newbie haha)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Now, uhhh now, uhhh hold on!! Just hold on! I never, I mean never, said Picard is superior to THE James Tiberius Kirk! I have seen “the Shat” in person at Star Trek conventions, have the great one’s autograph, grew up on a steady diet of watching Kirk break the prime directive. Picard is awesome, but no Kirk. TJ Hooker? well, that’s a different talk show!

I simply said, bruthuh, that Steward played Gurney, Picard, and Professor X. That’s a tall order! Although Shatner has done a wonderful job as a crooked lawyer and Priceline negotiator! But never did I tread on the Shatner to compliment P-Stew…But you do have to give Picard some credit. He’s bald. I like that. I’m on the road to lookin’ like the Captain…secondly, for an old-timer, he was pretty tough, liked Shakespeare (ya gotta love that!), liked history (really gotta like that!), kicked Borg butt, overcame being a Borg, had to put up with Troy’s mom (good Lord!), and had to put up with that annoying brat, Wesley! He was quite the trooper despite not being in the league of the Shat!

Actually DeForest Kelley, Dr. McCoy, is the most near and dear to my heart of all the classic Trek crew! I saw him as well and got an autograph. Saw Gene Roddenberry in person, too, just one year before the master died…Live long and prosper!

Picard…bah…phooy young wet behind the ears laddie!

Can’t hold a match to Kirk, T.J. Hooker and the Negotiator!

Kirk was a man’s man…never saw him cry…condemned to an ice planet prison on trump
up charges…must have been orthodox episcopalian…he get’s into a fight and quickly links up with the only woman there…ok pansexual…but he was hookwinked I tell ya!
No waxing on “can’t we all just get along!”

Though Picard did get better after running into the Borg!

Fr. Mark

 

[chris_molter]

Actually DeForest Kelley, Dr. McCoy, is the most near and dear to my heart of all the classic Trek crew! I saw him as well and got an autograph. Saw Gene Roddenberry in person, too, just one year before the master died…Live long and prosper!

You lucky dog! DeForest Kelley was always my favorite and I never got a chance to meet him I did meet Walter Koenig, (very nice guy, I feel terrible about his son) and Johnathan Frakes, who’s an absolute RIOT and comes across as very intelligent and quick-witted (even when he looks ready to drop dead from exhaustion). Those are the only Trek guys I’ve met, although I did get a chance to meet a lot of the B5 cast.

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

Not meaning to derail the SF talk …but

I also am in one of the last bastions of traditional Christianity in the Episcopal church, South Carolina to be specific. We are actually expecting our Bishop (Marc Lawrence) to be deposed sometime soon by the national church (ie Bishop Schori). The ostensible reason will probably allowing church’s to leave with their property to another Anglican expression. Things are tough and Bishop Schori is not liking groups that don’t toe the national church line.

If you want to know how whacky (and Gurney and GKC are right, whacky is a huge understatement) our church has become, take a look at this recent event in the Episcopal cathedral in Asheville, NC:

Asheville Mother Grove Goddess Temple to celebrate spring equinox
BY CAROLE TERRELL • MARCH 19, 2010
•
•
ASHEVILLE — After making it through the harsh winter, people in Western North Carolina are looking forward to the warm sun of spring. Some are preparing to celebrate the season’s change with an ecumenical ritual.

Saturday officially marks the first day of spring, being the day of the spring equinox.
Members of Mother Grove Goddess Temple will celebrate at 7 p.m. Saturday with A Breath of Appalachian Spring: A Ritual in Celebration of the Spring Equinox, in the parish hall of the Episcopal Cathedral of All Souls in Biltmore Village.

Saturday’s event is open to all faith traditions, said Byron Ballard, wiccan priestess and a member of the temple. Mother Grove “isn’t a wiccan group, though some of us are wiccans,” she said.

“Mother Grove is an outgrowth of the work of several people in the goddess/earth religions community,” Ballard said. “Its goal is to create a permanent sanctuary, where people of all faith traditions may openly and safely celebrate the divine feminine, the goddess.”
Wicca is a modern religion built on the ancient agricultural religions of Europe, she explained. “Wiccans may also refer to themselves as witches.”

Jill Boyer is a co-founder and priestess with Mother Grove. She says she looks forward to celebrating “with my celebrants and community, having time to celebrate something that is very important to me and the ritual aspects themselves.”

Boyer believes people have an ancient and human need for ritual and celebration in groups, and to acknowledge the changing of the seasons.

The celebration will consist of raising a circle, singing, “whistling up the wind” and flying prayers written on paper airplanes. Ballard will lead the ritual, explaining that it is a joyful expression of the beginning of spring and coming together as a community.
Nonperishable food items will be collected at the event for the Mother Grove Cornucopia Project food drive.

“Last year, as part of the celebration, we asked people to write a prayer or wish on a piece of paper and fold it into an airplane,” Ballard said. “We spent about five minutes flying planes around the room. Then we asked people to pick up a plane that was not theirs, take it home with them and pray for that person.”

Ballard said that “whistling up the wind” is an old English and Appalachian tradition. March is usually the windiest month, so the element of wind will be emphasized at the celebration. One person will whistle while three others honor the elements of earth, fire and water.

“It’s a lovely holiday for children,” Ballard said. “The first chance to get out and see what’s growing, to welcome baby chicks and lambs, to taste the first little green bits of chickweed. All pagan and wiccan holidays are family-friendly. Many Earth religionists choose to honor their spiritual traditions as a family group.”

So, back to the OP. There is a world of difference between the Catholic church and the Episcopal church. Way beyond ecclesiolgy and way beyond sexuality issues.

Jeff

 

[anode]

Not meaning to derail the SF talk …but

I also am in one of the last bastions of traditional Christianity in the Episcopal church, South Carolina to be specific. We are actually expecting our Bishop (Marc Lawrence) to be deposed sometime soon by the national church (ie Bishop Schori). The ostensible reason will probably allowing church’s to leave with their property to another Anglican expression. Things are tough and Bishop Schori is not liking groups that don’t toe the national church line.

If you want to know how wacky (and Gurney and GKC are right, wacky is a huge understatement) our church has become, take a look at this recent event in the Episcopal cathedral in Asheville, NC:

Asheville Mother Grove Goddess Temple to celebrate spring equinox
BY CAROLE TERRELL • MARCH 19, 2010
•
•
ASHEVILLE — After making it through the harsh winter, people in Western North Carolina are looking forward to the warm sun of spring. Some are preparing to celebrate the season’s change with an ecumenical ritual.

Saturday officially marks the first day of spring, being the day of the spring equinox.
Members of Mother Grove Goddess Temple will celebrate at 7 p.m. Saturday with A Breath of Appalachian Spring: A Ritual in Celebration of the Spring Equinox, in the parish hall of the Episcopal Cathedral of All Souls in Biltmore Village.

Saturday’s event is open to all faith traditions, said Byron Ballard, wiccan priestess and a member of the temple. Mother Grove “isn’t a wiccan group, though some of us are wiccans,” she said.

“Mother Grove is an outgrowth of the work of several people in the goddess/earth religions community,” Ballard said. “Its goal is to create a permanent sanctuary, where people of all faith traditions may openly and safely celebrate the divine feminine, the goddess.”
Wicca is a modern religion built on the ancient agricultural religions of Europe, she explained. “Wiccans may also refer to themselves as witches.”

Jill Boyer is a co-founder and priestess with Mother Grove. She says she looks forward to celebrating “with my celebrants and community, having time to celebrate something that is very important to me and the ritual aspects themselves.”

Boyer believes people have an ancient and human need for ritual and celebration in groups, and to acknowledge the changing of the seasons.

The celebration will consist of raising a circle, singing, “whistling up the wind” and flying prayers written on paper airplanes. Ballard will lead the ritual, explaining that it is a joyful expression of the beginning of spring and coming together as a community.
Nonperishable food items will be collected at the event for the Mother Grove Cornucopia Project food drive.

“Last year, as part of the celebration, we asked people to write a prayer or wish on a piece of paper and fold it into an airplane,” Ballard said. “We spent about five minutes flying planes around the room. Then we asked people to pick up a plane that was not theirs, take it home with them and pray for that person.”

Ballard said that “whistling up the wind” is an old English and Appalachian tradition. March is usually the windiest month, so the element of wind will be emphasized at the celebration. One person will whistle while three others honor the elements of earth, fire and water.

“It’s a lovely holiday for children,” Ballard said. “The first chance to get out and see what’s growing, to welcome baby chicks and lambs, to taste the first little green bits of chickweed. All pagan and wiccan holidays are family-friendly. Many Earth religionists choose to honor their spiritual traditions as a family group.”

So, back to the OP. There is a world of difference between the Catholic church and the Episcopal church. Way beyond ecclesiolgy and way beyond sexuality issues.

Jeff

The activities were ancient, ‘druidic’, fun for the families, and were performed in a parish hall not in the church, which was probably rented out for the performance.

I, who lived in North Carolina for a number of years, have always thought that South Carolina was the last bastion of the worst aspects of the South. Many African-Americans continue to live there in near-serf-like conditions. I am not impressed by the stance of the Episcopal Church there, or its bishop.

 

[GKC]

You lucky dog! DeForest Kelley was always my favorite and I never got a chance to meet him I did meet Walter Koenig, (very nice guy, I feel terrible about his son) and Johnathan Frakes, who’s an absolute RIOT and comes across as very intelligent and quick-witted (even when he looks ready to drop dead from exhaustion). Those are the only Trek guys I’ve met, although I did get a chance to meet a lot of the B5 cast.

So far, I’ve met Scotty, Ohuru, Chekov, Sulu, Yeoman Rand, Nurse Chapel/computer, and a few bit players. Passed the chance to meet Shatner and Stewart last year. Met Q, but really don’t count Next Generation.

GKC