Episcopalian vs. Catholic

[GKC]

The activities were ancient, ‘druidic’, fun for the families, and were performed in a parish hall not in the church, which was probably rented out for the performance.

I, who lived in North Carolina for a number of years, have always thought that South Carolina was the last bastion of the worst aspects of the South. Many African-Americans continue to live there in near-serf-like conditions. I am not impressed by the stance of the Episcopal Church there, or its bishop.

I am. Not that I consider them sufficiently orthodox, but I like the spirit.

I can’t vouch for your other observations, either. After living here for likely more years than you lived north of here.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I live in close proximity to +Lawrence’s diocese and follow the soap opera unfolding there. And read TITUSONENINE, too. Lawrence is a good man, though not what I consider a good Episcopalian. Close as you’ll find, these days, though. And the gracious Katherine is sorting her fetishes, and pouring her potions for him.

GKC

Not meaning to derail the SF talk …but

I also am in one of the last bastions of traditional Christianity in the Episcopal church, South Carolina to be specific. We are actually expecting our Bishop (Marc Lawrence) to be deposed sometime soon by the national church (ie Bishop Schori). The ostensible reason will probably allowing church’s to leave with their property to another Anglican expression. Things are tough and Bishop Schori is not liking groups that don’t toe the national church line.

If you want to know how whacky (and Gurney and GKC are right, whacky is a huge understatement) our church has become, take a look at this recent event in the Episcopal cathedral in Asheville, NC:

Asheville Mother Grove Goddess Temple to celebrate spring equinox
BY CAROLE TERRELL • MARCH 19, 2010
•
•
ASHEVILLE — After making it through the harsh winter, people in Western North Carolina are looking forward to the warm sun of spring. Some are preparing to celebrate the season’s change with an ecumenical ritual.

Saturday officially marks the first day of spring, being the day of the spring equinox.
Members of Mother Grove Goddess Temple will celebrate at 7 p.m. Saturday with A Breath of Appalachian Spring: A Ritual in Celebration of the Spring Equinox, in the parish hall of the Episcopal Cathedral of All Souls in Biltmore Village.

Saturday’s event is open to all faith traditions, said Byron Ballard, wiccan priestess and a member of the temple. Mother Grove “isn’t a wiccan group, though some of us are wiccans,” she said.

“Mother Grove is an outgrowth of the work of several people in the goddess/earth religions community,” Ballard said. “Its goal is to create a permanent sanctuary, where people of all faith traditions may openly and safely celebrate the divine feminine, the goddess.”
Wicca is a modern religion built on the ancient agricultural religions of Europe, she explained. “Wiccans may also refer to themselves as witches.”

Jill Boyer is a co-founder and priestess with Mother Grove. She says she looks forward to celebrating “with my celebrants and community, having time to celebrate something that is very important to me and the ritual aspects themselves.”

Boyer believes people have an ancient and human need for ritual and celebration in groups, and to acknowledge the changing of the seasons.

The celebration will consist of raising a circle, singing, “whistling up the wind” and flying prayers written on paper airplanes. Ballard will lead the ritual, explaining that it is a joyful expression of the beginning of spring and coming together as a community.
Nonperishable food items will be collected at the event for the Mother Grove Cornucopia Project food drive.

“Last year, as part of the celebration, we asked people to write a prayer or wish on a piece of paper and fold it into an airplane,” Ballard said. “We spent about five minutes flying planes around the room. Then we asked people to pick up a plane that was not theirs, take it home with them and pray for that person.”

Ballard said that “whistling up the wind” is an old English and Appalachian tradition. March is usually the windiest month, so the element of wind will be emphasized at the celebration. One person will whistle while three others honor the elements of earth, fire and water.

“It’s a lovely holiday for children,” Ballard said. “The first chance to get out and see what’s growing, to welcome baby chicks and lambs, to taste the first little green bits of chickweed. All pagan and wiccan holidays are family-friendly. Many Earth religionists choose to honor their spiritual traditions as a family group.”

So, back to the OP. There is a world of difference between the Catholic church and the Episcopal church. Way beyond ecclesiolgy and way beyond sexuality issues.

Jeff

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

Anode,
I will forego a response to your racial slur paintbrush, since that would derail the thread.

But respond to your assertion that it was just a simple fun druid festival, I will. Firstly, just read the text of what the “festival” was doing. Earth Goddess? Please. This is pagan, not Christian. In a parish hall or the sanctuary it is anathema. Rented or not makes no difference. This is not even close to a grey area. Its symptomatic of how the Episcopal church is slipping into the syncretistic abyss. This festival has nothing at all to do with Christ. Its just another example of how Christ is not sufficient for a the majority of the Episcopal church.

While I have issues with my Catholic brother and sisters on several theological matters, one thing is for sure. This event would not happen in a Catholic parish.

If you are Episcopalian, please explain how this behavior glorifies Christ. This might be illuminating for the OP.

Jeff

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To defend the Episcopal Church in its current form and after all the insanity it has initiated in the past decade alone is like apologetics for Jerry Springer.

Anode,
I will forego a response to your racial slur paintbrush, since that would derail the thread.

But respond to your assertion that it was just a simple fun druid festival, I will. Firstly, just read the text of what the “festival” was doing. Earth Goddess? Please. This is pagan, not Christian. In a parish hall or the sanctuary it is anathema. Rented or not makes no difference. This is not even close to a grey area. Its symptomatic of how the Episcopal church is slipping into the syncretistic abyss. This festival has nothing at all to do with Christ. Its just another example of how Christ is not sufficient for a the majority of the Episcopal church.

While I have issues with my Catholic brother and sisters on several theological matters, one thing is for sure. This event would not happen in a Catholic parish.

If you are Episcopalian, please explain how this behavior glorifies Christ. This might be illuminating for the OP.

Jeff

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, Kelley was the man. Loved him. I went to see him at a big Star Trek convention in 1990. He was standing only about seven or eight feet from me. I was thrilled, man. At the end he told us he couldn’t sign autographs becuase he had horrible arthritis in his hands. I was mega-bummed. So, I went and grabbed two fancy, glossy pics of him and mailed him a letter telling him how much I adored him and how much I wished I could’ve gotten his autograph. He wrote me back, signed both, included a letter signed then gave me a book of Star Trek poetry signed by him. Amazing guy.

I’ve met or seen:

Roddenberry
Shatner
Kelley
Koenig (you should’ve heard how this guy talks about fans, hates autographs…)
Grace Lee Whitney (Yeoman Rand)
Majel Barrett (Nurse Chapel, Troy’s mom)
John DeLancy (Q)
Nichelle Nichols (Uhura)–listening to her singing was a penance indeed ahhhhhghg!
Jonathan Frakes (Riker)–hilarious, long shorman mouth, quick, funny, smart
Marina Sirtis
The whale doctor from Star Trek IV, can’t think of her name off-hand
etc. etc.

I went to a horror con too, met some horror movie personalities…lol…I have the late great Vincent Price’s autograph, John Carpenter’s, Peter Falk (Columbo), Dirk Benedict (Starbuck/Face from A Team), a bunch of others…

You lucky dog! DeForest Kelley was always my favorite and I never got a chance to meet him I did meet Walter Koenig, (very nice guy, I feel terrible about his son) and Johnathan Frakes, who’s an absolute RIOT and comes across as very intelligent and quick-witted (even when he looks ready to drop dead from exhaustion). Those are the only Trek guys I’ve met, although I did get a chance to meet a lot of the B5 cast.

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

Gurney,
I agree with you completely. It’s funny, for some reason I am drawn the these Episcopalian threads like a moth to a flame.

Another great example of Episcopalian decision making… there is a small church in New York state whose congregation and rector opposed the trajectory of the national church. They tried to negotiate a purchase of the property from the Diocese. This was rebuffed. Unfortunately, the parish made the decision to try to work the civil courts to be allowed to leave. They lost and the diocese took over control. The diocese made the case (and it is a good one) that the parish is a creature of the diocese and that it had a fiduciary duty to protect the assets for the benefit of future episcopalians. OK…so far it seems like the diocese is just protecting its assets. But…several months later:

They sell the property to a Muslim community group for roughly a third of what the parish group was offering to purchase it for. So, the national church would rather sell property to an anti Christian group for less money instead of selling it to a Christian group that would operate under the Anglican umbrella in their geographic area. Nice.

Back to the OP, yes there is a very real difference between the Catholic Church and the Episcopal church.

Jeff

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Katharine Schiori is willing to litigate ANY and ALL conservative Anglican parishes and dioceses until they are broke, take the property, and sell it to any Tom, Dick, and Harry, even make it a bar like Cheers if need be, rather than let it fall back into the hands of the conservatives. This is the religious version of ethnic cleansing, take no prisoners, ruin and crush your ‘opponent.’ Sick stuff. Brothers in Christ don’t act this way, the surest way to know the hearts of these people. They know in my area that if they win, their own liberal troops won’t be able to financially sustain these parish churches because they only have sometimes 10-20 liberal hippie parishoners to ‘staff’ them and support $$$ to keep 'em afloat. So, they’ll win and sell the land/building. It’s like Chrysler buying American Motors and then eliminating the line and closing the factories, eliminate the competition, absorb…they’re like the Borg! LOL

Gurney,
I agree with you completely. It’s funny, for some reason I am drawn the these Episcopalian threads like a moth to a flame.

Another great example of Episcopalian decision making… there is a small church in New York state whose congregation and rector opposed the trajectory of the national church. They tried to negotiate a purchase of the property from the Diocese. This was rebuffed. Unfortunately, the parish made the decision to try to work the civil courts to be allowed to leave. They lost and the diocese took over control. The diocese made the case (and it is a good one) that the parish is a creature of the diocese and that it had a fiduciary duty to protect the assets for the benefit of future episcopalians. OK…so far it seems like the diocese is just protecting its assets. But…several months later:

They sell the property to a Muslim community group for roughly a third of what the parish group was offering to purchase it for. So, the national church would rather sell property to an anti Christian group for less money instead of selling it to a Christian group that would operate under the Anglican umbrella in their geographic area. Nice.

Back to the OP, yes there is a very real difference between the Catholic Church and the Episcopal church.

Jeff

 

[GKC]

That atrocity was in Binghamton, NY.

And historically, the national office is a creation of the dioceses. The PB is a recent innovation. The Episcopal Church is a voluntary associaton of soveriegn dioceses.

Not that it matters.

GKC

Gurney,
I agree with you completely. It’s funny, for some reason I am drawn the these Episcopalian threads like a moth to a flame.

Another great example of Episcopalian decision making… there is a small church in New York state whose congregation and rector opposed the trajectory of the national church. They tried to negotiate a purchase of the property from the Diocese. This was rebuffed. Unfortunately, the parish made the decision to try to work the civil courts to be allowed to leave. They lost and the diocese took over control. The diocese made the case (and it is a good one) that the parish is a creature of the diocese and that it had a fiduciary duty to protect the assets for the benefit of future episcopalians. OK…so far it seems like the diocese is just protecting its assets. But…several months later:

They sell the property to a Muslim community group for roughly a third of what the parish group was offering to purchase it for. So, the national church would rather sell property to an anti Christian group for less money instead of selling it to a Christian group that would operate under the Anglican umbrella in their geographic area. Nice.

Back to the OP, yes there is a very real difference between the Catholic Church and the Episcopal church.

Jeff

 

[manualman]

Anode,
…While I have issues with my Catholic brother and sisters on several theological matters, one thing is for sure. This event would not happen in a Catholic parish.

You give us a bit too much credit. While I wish your sentiment were true, we have our fair share of, ahem, innovators as well. Try googling St. Joan of Arc parish in theSt. Paul, MN diocese sometime…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Try going to Morro Bay, the parish there is looney!! Yet funnily enough, go to San Francisco and I’ve always experienced solid Masses with no liberal weirdness? Go figure!

You give us a bit too much credit. While I wish your sentiment were true, we have our fair share of, ahem, innovators as well. Try googling St. Joan of Arc parish in theSt. Paul, MN diocese sometime…

 

[Palaeologos]

The differences are many. For example, the Catholic Church sets out, among her teachings, the attributes of the Church herself, and the Sacraments. The Episcopal church rejects most of these teachings. (It is pointless to note that there is a variance of opinion among Episcopalians. That has nothing to do with teachings.)

If you’re going to be that way about it, then let me point out that the Episcopal Church has no “teachings”. There is nothing that any Episcopalian is required by canon or other instrument of unity to believe.

This wasn’t always the case, but as of now TEC doesn’t require acceptance of any deposit of doctrine whatsoever. The Apostles’ Creed is affirmed as part of the rite of Baptism, and the Nicene Creed is often recited at the Eucharist, but in neither case is the recitation viewed as a binding affirmation.

Don’t mistake me : I think this is a ridiculous state of affairs. But “the Episcopal Church” doesn’t reject or accept any teachings as a body. Not anymore.

 

[GKC]

If you’re going to be that way about it, then let me point out that the Episcopal Church has no “teachings”. There is nothing that any Episcopalian is required by canon or other instrument of unity to believe.

This wasn’t always the case, but as of now TEC doesn’t require acceptance of any deposit of doctrine whatsoever. The Apostles’ Creed is affirmed as part of the rite of Baptism, and the Nicene Creed is often recited at the Eucharist, but in neither case is the recitation viewed as a binding affirmation.

Don’t mistake me : I think this is a ridiculous state of affairs. But “the Episcopal Church” doesn’t reject or accept any teachings as a body. Not anymore.

Yep.

GKC

 

[blazerdave]

If you’re going to be that way about it, then let me point out that the Episcopal Church has no “teachings”. There is nothing that any Episcopalian is required by canon or other instrument of unity to believe.

This wasn’t always the case, but as of now TEC doesn’t require acceptance of any deposit of doctrine whatsoever. The Apostles’ Creed is affirmed as part of the rite of Baptism, and the Nicene Creed is often recited at the Eucharist, but in neither case is the recitation viewed as a binding affirmation.

Don’t mistake me : I think this is a ridiculous state of affairs. But “the Episcopal Church” doesn’t reject or accept any teachings as a body. Not anymore.

Exactly. And perhaps future generations of historians will finally see the fruits of theological liberalism and recognize them as one of the greatest tragedies of Church history. The things you said are very true, and they’re a real shame. Lord help us.

And to AlaricTeudisson: my parish is a huge fan of your bishop. He spoke at our Lenten preaching series recently and was declared “the man” by those who heard him.

 

[blazerdave]

As for the other topic in this incredibly diverse thread, I must confess to the sin of envy! I have not had the opportunity to meet any of the cast of Trek, Next Generation, B5, X-Men, Dune, or anything else worth paying attention to! I did sit near Scottie Pippen in a restaurant once, but he never flew spaceships or fought epic wars against evil…well, the old Knicks were pretty brutal, but whatever

 

[GKC]

As for the other topic in this incredibly diverse thread, I must confess to the sin of envy! I have not had the opportunity to meet any of the cast of Trek, Next Generation, B5, X-Men, Dune, or anything else worth paying attention to! I did sit near Scottie Pippen in a restaurant once, but he never flew spaceships or fought epic wars against evil…well, the old Knicks were pretty brutal, but whatever

Attending science fiction conventions is the key.

GKC

 

[anode]

Katharine Schiori is willing to litigate ANY and ALL conservative Anglican parishes and dioceses until they are broke, take the property, and sell it to any Tom, Dick, and Harry, even make it a bar like Cheers if need be, rather than let it fall back into the hands of the conservatives. This is the religious version of ethnic cleansing, take no prisoners, ruin and crush your ‘opponent.’ Sick stuff. Brothers in Christ don’t act this way, the surest way to know the hearts of these people. They know in my area that if they win, their own liberal troops won’t be able to financially sustain these parish churches because they only have sometimes 10-20 liberal hippie parishoners to ‘staff’ them and support $$$ to keep 'em afloat. So, they’ll win and sell the land/building. It’s like Chrysler buying American Motors and then eliminating the line and closing the factories, eliminate the competition, absorb…they’re like the Borg! LOL

The ownership of church property depends on who built and who actually owns the property, and the laws of the state that the property is in. it has* nothing *to do with a “Brother in Christ” on anything else. If any dissenting group could walk away with church property, the Roman Catholic church would have lost its properties years ago.

…and don’t be so sure about what the ‘liberal troops’ may or may not be able to do or what the future of those churches may be. Attitudes towards gays are changing dramatically and rapidly in this country. Soon they will be able to serve openly in the military. The younger the adult, the more liberal his/her attitudes are towards gays.

True, some churches may close, but may have been in danger of closing or merging anyway. Mainstream Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church are in decline in this country. RC dioceses are merging churches, schools and parishes. Several RC dioceses are in bankruptcy. More adults are identifying themselves as unaffiliated or non-religious.

 

[GKC]

You are correct. That’s precisely how ownership of the property should be determined: whose name is on the deed . And the voluntary association of dioceses known as the Episcopal Church did not fund or build, or legally, by deed, own the property in question. The individual parishes did. Many of which predate not only TEC, but the dioceses they are now part of.

The difference between the RCC situation, and TEC, is that the RCC is precisely a formal structurally hiearchical organization. TEC is not.

TEC’s legal claim is that, pursuant to a dubious canon passed in the dead of night 30 years ago, all property legally held by individual parishes were magically transformed into property held in trust for TEC. State laws generally hold that a legal trust cannot be established without the signature of the legal owner on the instrument. Those courts that have so far upheld this robbery generally are treating TEC as the functional and structural equivalent of the RCC. Which, as in many other points, it are not.

GKC

The ownership of church property depends on who built and who actually owns the property, and the laws of the state that the property is in. it has* nothing *to do with a “Brother in Christ” on anything else. If any dissenting group could walk away with church property, the Roman Catholic church would have lost its properties years ago.

…and don’t be so sure about what the ‘liberal troops’ may or may not be able to do or what the future of those churches may be. Attitudes towards gays are changing dramatically and rapidly in this country. Soon they will be able to serve openly in the military. The younger the adult, the more liberal his/her attitudes are towards gays.

True, some churches may close, but may have been in danger of closing or merging anyway. Mainstream Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church are in decline in this country. RC dioceses are merging churches, schools and parishes. Several RC dioceses are in bankruptcy. More adults are identifying themselves as unaffiliated or non-religious.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Anode,

You and I have been through this property debate before going in circles about it. I couldn’t disagree with you more about it. I will simply say again, if people own the deed to their churches lock, stock, and barrell and they vote by an overwhelming majority to leave TEC and the diocese, which is independent and not hierarchical and TEC tries to paint it and they have the right to amend their constitutions at any time to do what they please, the parishes own their property, then the continued tyrannical approach you propose it moot. This is my final word on this. I’m burned out on the debate. IT becomes a “Who’s on first?” situation.

As for the surrender mentality that, 'hey, everyone’s becoming liberal anyway or irreligious so what the heck…" they were going to close or merge anyway so sue 'em!, I don’t share the sentiment.

Catholic parishes are often closing not because there’s a lack of Catholic parishoners or enthusiasm, they’re closing thanks to the enormous amounts of $$$ that the Church is spending in some areas to hush hush victims of pedophile monsters. The bad economy and job losses don’t help either.

The ownership of church property depends on who built and who actually owns the property, and the laws of the state that the property is in. it has* nothing *to do with a “Brother in Christ” on anything else. If any dissenting group could walk away with church property, the Roman Catholic church would have lost its properties years ago.

…and don’t be so sure about what the ‘liberal troops’ may or may not be able to do or what the future of those churches may be. Attitudes towards gays are changing dramatically and rapidly in this country. Soon they will be able to serve openly in the military. The younger the adult, the more liberal his/her attitudes are towards gays.

True, some churches may close, but may have been in danger of closing or merging anyway. Mainstream Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church are in decline in this country. RC dioceses are merging churches, schools and parishes. Several RC dioceses are in bankruptcy. More adults are identifying themselves as unaffiliated or non-religious.

 

[anode]

You are correct. That’s precisely how ownership of the property should be determined: whose name is on the deed . And the voluntary association of dioceses known as the Episcopal Church did not fund or build, or legally, by deed, own the property in question. The individual parishes did. Many of which predate not only TEC, but the dioceses they are now part of.

The difference between the RCC situation, and TEC, is that the RCC is precisely a formal structurally hiearchical organization. TEC is not.

TEC’s legal claim is that, pursuant to a dubious canon passed in the dead of night 30 years ago, all property legally held by individual parishes were magically transformed into property held in trust for TEC. State laws generally hold that a legal trust cannot be established without the signature of the legal owner on the instrument. Those courts that have so far upheld this robbery generally are treating TEC as the functional and structural equivalent of the RCC. Which, as in many other points, it are not.

GKC

I must say that it all sounds very conspiratorial-- – a ‘dubious canon’, ‘passed in the dead of night’–too bad it wasn’t challenged then and there.

The courts will sort it out. IF the ‘dubious’ canon has the force of law, TEC will win in various of these court cases, as it has already. But believe me, it isn’t going to go quietly into that good night, and if I were Schori, I wouldn’t either.

I must say that these ‘Episcopal’ threads keep going on and on, as the needle is stuck in the groove, with the various reliable posters , GKC, and others, bitterly complaining and whining about events as they unfold. Time to move on, folks, move on, or stay and quit complaining.

 

[Palaeologos]

I must say that it all sounds very conspiratorial-- – a ‘dubious canon’, ‘passed in the dead of night’–too bad it wasn’t challenged then and there.

The courts will sort it out. IF the ‘dubious’ canon has the force of law, TEC will win in various of these court cases, as it has already. But believe me, it isn’t going to go quietly into that good night, and if I were Schori, I wouldn’t either.

The joke is that her church is hemorrhaging members. The ASAs keep declining. Unitarianism-with-vestments is clearly a smaller niche market than she appears to think. Gently or not, she’s going into that good night, and no court proceeding will stop that.

I must say that these ‘Episcopal’ threads keep going on and on, as the needle is stuck in the groove, with the various reliable posters , GKC, and others, bitterly complaining and whining about events as they unfold. Time to move on, folks, move on, or stay and quit complaining.

You are misapprehending GKC’s situation. He’s not a member of TEC. Neither am I, and neither are many who are commenting on the Episcopal Church’s current problems.