Episcopalians Reaching Point of Revolt

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CatherineofA said:
I think the Catholic Church appears to be soft on homosexuals. From what I can tell, they seem to try to condemn the act and see the person as dealing with something they can’t help. If that’s the case, it’s in conflict with the historic church AND scripture. Does Catholicism support homosexuality as a sin and that those who practice it are destined for Hell? If not, then they are soft on gays and heading the way of other churches.
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The Catholic Church sees homosexuality as a grave sin if done with full knowledge, etc. In that case those who practice homosexuality are in grave danger of going to hell. The Catholic Church does not make judgements about whether or not any individual is actually in hell or going to hell. That’s for God to decide. What the Catholic Church is continually call individuals to repentance and invite them to receive the grace that comes with the gospel. That grace includes the ability to overcome any sin, including homosexuality.
 
responding to OP, you do remember the topic of this thread, don’t you, there are threads debating homosexual priests, women priests and bishops, and Catholic teaching on these issues. This one is about Episcopalians who are leaving their church individually or en masse.

I have been involved in RCIA in one way or another for 20 years, and almost every year at least a couple of our candidates have been Episcopalian, and are leaving because they feel the preaching and teaching they are hearing is not the Truth, and the Catholic church possesses the truth. The other issues that arise because of this failure to teach are symptoms, not necessarily causes, of the problem they are discerning. In my former diocese 20-30 people from an Episcopalian congregation entered the Church in one year at ours and several surrounding parishes. This was a parish that had closed its doors because of a mass exodus following appointment of a woman pastor.

the single biggest problem I recall these folks mentioning in their conversion is not about doctrine or teaching, it is liturgy. they are surprisingly able to get the logic about papal infallibility and magesteral authority, but the dumbed down liturgy especially banal contemporary music is very painful to them. Fortunately they seem as a group to have more of their share of musical talent and many of them have helped revitalize sacred music in their parishes.
 
puzzleannie said:
responding to OP, you do remember the topic of this thread, don’t you, there are threads debating homosexual priests, women priests and bishops, and Catholic teaching on these issues. This one is about Episcopalians who are leaving their church individually or en masse.

I have been involved in RCIA in one way or another for 20 years, and almost every year at least a couple of our candidates have been Episcopalian, and are leaving because they feel the preaching and teaching they are hearing is not the Truth, and the Catholic church possesses the truth. The other issues that arise because of this failure to teach are symptoms, not necessarily causes, of the problem they are discerning. In my former diocese 20-30 people from an Episcopalian congregation entered the Church in one year at ours and several surrounding parishes. This was a parish that had closed its doors because of a mass exodus following appointment of a woman pastor.

the single biggest problem I recall these folks mentioning in their conversion is not about doctrine or teaching, it is liturgy. they are surprisingly able to get the logic about papal infallibility and magesteral authority, but the dumbed down liturgy especially banal contemporary music is very painful to them. Fortunately they seem as a group to have more of their share of musical talent and many of them have helped revitalize sacred music in their parishes.
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On Fox News they were discussing this last night. Fred Barnes is a member of one of the congregations that voted to leave. He said the homosexuality issue was not the major problem. There has been a steady drift in the national Episcopal Church away from the gospel including basic issues such as the divinity of Christ. So there is more than just a homosexual bishop causing these reactions.
 
puzzleannie said:
the single biggest problem I recall these folks mentioning in their conversion is not about doctrine or teaching, it is liturgy… the dumbed down liturgy [and] especially banal contemporary music is very painful to them.
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What’s the famous quote? When an Anglican convert to the Catholic Church was asked what he missed most from his Anglican days, he responded “hearing the liturgy in English”. Along with Shakespeare, the Book of Common Prayer is one of the foundational sources of the English language. In the opinion of many folks, especially those coming from an Anglican background, the NO lacks much of the majesty of the BCP. I would also agree that many Episcopal Churchs that I’ve attended have fine music programs.
 
Diocese and departing parishes agree on a 30 day moratorium on transfer of property and initiating court suits. “The defections represent more than 7 percent of the churches in the diocese, but they have 11 percent of its baptized membership and 18 percent of the diocesan average Sunday attendance of 32,000.”

washingtontimes.com/national/20061219-122041-8265r.htm
 
Ladybug42 said:
Yeah, I feel pretty lost right now. Prayer would be appreciated for all of us. I tried going back to my old Episcopal church today and walked out crying in the middle of the service. It felt empty, it felt wrong, and I had to leave. I had hoped that the RCC was the right place to be, right now it feels as if my heart is breaking as I begin to seriously examine my doubts.

For Christians to be bickering, or making schism, or going astray in doctrine like this…is nauseating.
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God is very close to you.
Ask Him each day to elighten you and to show you His will for your life in this situation.
What we need to realize is that all these things are happening because of disobedience. **
Nothing is about what we “think” or what “we feel” it is about what God said and what God wants.
I believe He intends for all divisions within His Church to be made known. At this point in history discipline is the only way that a very serious need for change can come. We can not blame** this chastizement on secularism. The stove may have been hot but no one had to put their hand on it!
Christians themselves have brought this on themselves and Christains need to repent and **fix it. Begin your own sincere search for truth and God will guide you all the way.
Remember always His words…"that they may all be one as you and I Father are one **so that the world will believe that you sent me". If the world does not believe what does this tell you?
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=1&SeriesID=-6892289
.
 
CatherineofA said:
Question: I saw where there was a homosexual priest or monk or man of the cloth who was Catholic. He helped with the 9/11 firefighters as their (possibly priest?) friend and spiritual helper. He was killed. If the church is against homosexuality, how did this happen? Why did the church keep him? Why was he given a position or allowed to stay in one?
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one of those enduring myths that refuses to go away.
 
rr1213 said:
What’s the famous quote? When an Anglican convert to the Catholic Church was asked what he missed most from his Anglican days, he responded “hearing the liturgy in English”. Along with Shakespeare, the Book of Common Prayer is one of the foundational sources of the English language. In the opinion of many folks, especially those coming from an Anglican background, the NO lacks much of the majesty of the BCP. I would also agree that many Episcopal Churchs that I’ve attended have fine music programs.
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Fr. George Rutler, I believe.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
christianley said:
On Fox News they were discussing this last night. Fred Barnes is a member of one of the congregations that voted to leave. He said the homosexuality issue was not the major problem. There has been a steady drift in the national Episcopal Church away from the gospel including basic issues such as the divinity of Christ. So there is more than just a homosexual bishop causing these reactions.
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And putting collars and miters on females. And some little liturgical bits and pieces. And, as you note, basic Christianity.

GKC
 
rr1213 said:
What’s the famous quote? When an Anglican convert to the Catholic Church was asked what he missed most from his Anglican days, he responded “hearing the liturgy in English”. Along with Shakespeare, the Book of Common Prayer is one of the foundational sources of the English language. In the opinion of many folks, especially those coming from an Anglican background, the NO lacks much of the majesty of the BCP. I would also agree that many Episcopal Churchs that I’ve attended have fine music programs.
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I said in my earlier post that I was glad to out of the mess that is Anglicanism and I meant what I said.

However, it is true that traditional Anglicans used to have a dignity of worship that is sorely lacking in the Catholic Church today.

There used to be an expression that in Church of England worship everything was done “decently and in order.” I sometimes get the impression that in many modern Catholic Churches everything is done “indecently and in disorder.”

Therefore, I wish Fr Phillips and the Pastoral Provision for Anglican Usage in the Catholic Church all God’s blessings.

I make this statement with one big proviso.
I purchased a DVD of the Anglican Usage mass and found it beautiful, just what the Catholic Church is crying out for today.

However - I also purchased a copy of the Anglican Usage Book of Worship and as I read it alarm bells began to ring loudly. Throughout the book they have introduced modern language version of the mass and offices and lots and lots of ALTERNATIVE options. I strongly believe that this is what began the decline in Catholic worship after Vatican 2.

What has possesed the Anglican Usage people to begin the very nonsense that has brought the Novus Ordo to such a sorry state? Are they trying to apease the modernist Catholics?

I would urge the Anglican Usage to be faithful to their mission - beautiful worship in the Catholic Church. They must not sell themeselves out or their reason for existing will vanish, and so eventually will the Anglican Usage.
 
As a former member of one of the northern virginia parishes, this news saddens me and drives me to my knees for the parishioners and rector who I count as excellent examples of Christian charity and joyful worship.

Current SCOTUS justice Clarence Thomas was an active parishioner at Truro, along with many influential politicians. George Washington was on the vestry and its historical roots run deep in a “Commonwealth” that prides itself on history.

Unfortunately, the land battle is what Bishop Lee seems to care more about than the exodus of a massively large percentage of his weekly churchgoing diocesan members.

Please be attentive to the pain of these and other Episcopalians at this time. We as Catholics (for only the past eight years for me) are well within our rights to encourage their joining us in a full communion with Christ’s Church, but should be careful not to be too dismissive of the problems and perfidy that have brought about this impass.
 
I am well aware of Clarence Thomas’ current home within the RCC.

It just so happened that God permitted me the opportunity to follow in close proximity from my time at Truro to my time at St. Andrew the Apostle Parish in Northern Virginia with Justice Thomas. No I was not stalking him.

I was merely making reference to a well known current public figure who I can guarantee is fervently praying for Reverend Minns and the rest of the congregation at a place he formerly worshipped.
 
rjs1 said:
I said in my earlier post that I was glad to out of the mess that is Anglicanism and I meant what I said.

However, it is true that traditional Anglicans used to have a dignity of worship that is sorely lacking in the Catholic Church today.

There used to be an expression that in Church of England worship everything was done “decently and in order.” I sometimes get the impression that in many modern Catholic Churches everything is done “indecently and in disorder.”

Therefore, I wish Fr Phillips and the Pastoral Provision for Anglican Usage in the Catholic Church all God’s blessings.

I make this statement with one big proviso.
I purchased a DVD of the Anglican Usage mass and found it beautiful, just what the Catholic Church is crying out for today.

However - I also purchased a copy of the Anglican Usage Book of Worship and as I read it alarm bells began to ring loudly. Throughout the book they have introduced modern language version of the mass and offices and lots and lots of ALTERNATIVE options. I strongly believe that this is what began the decline in Catholic worship after Vatican 2.

What has possesed the Anglican Usage people to begin the very nonsense that has brought the Novus Ordo to such a sorry state? Are they trying to apease the modernist Catholics?

I would urge the Anglican Usage to be faithful to their mission - beautiful worship in the Catholic Church. They must not sell themeselves out or their reason for existing will vanish, and so eventually will the Anglican Usage.
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The structure and general liturgy of the AU Book of Divine Worship is patterned after the ECUSA 1979 prayer book, which is not a good idea, as you note. THe 1928 Book of Common PRayer would ahve been a far better choice.

And the Anglican Use is designed to be a temporary expedient, to ease the transition of Episcopalians into the RCC, corporately. There is no provision, under the Pastoral Provision, for continuing an AU parish, after the death of the original, former Episcopal priest. Some AU parishes have achieved showcase status, and will no doubt survive, but most, as was the case of the local one in my area, will become NO parishes, in due course. That’s one reason why the total number of AU parishes is so small.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Not quite the same thing. The formation of the Reformed Episcopal Church in the 1870s is closer. But this particular process goes back to 1977 and the St. Lous Conference of traditional Anglicans.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
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Were you there? We were. Hung in as long as we could. Decades of struggle.

Well, for those who are straggling out past the battle lines, we who have already forded the Tiber are here for you: got the blankets, bandages, hot coffee, and donuts – not to mention the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord.

Takes a few years to re-hab. It’s been six years for me, and I’m still not past the PTSD.
 
GKC said:
The structure and general liturgy of the AU Book of Divine Worship is patterned after the ECUSA 1979 prayer book, which is not a good idea, as you note. THe 1928 Book of Common PRayer would ahve been a far better choice.

And the Anglican Use is designed to be a temporary expedient, to ease the transition of Episcopalians into the RCC, corporately. There is no provision, under the Pastoral Provision, for continuing an AU parish, after the death of the original, former Episcopal priest. Some AU parishes have achieved showcase status, and will no doubt survive, but most, as was the case of the local one in my area, will become NO parishes, in due course. That’s one reason why the total number of AU parishes is so small.

GKC
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Roger everything you say here. Frankly, although I have some contact with the AU, I have found it worth the (difficult) adjustment to go cold turkey and make my uneasy peace with Catholic worship as it is found in my local parish. We don’t have hideous liturgical abuses like inclusive language and liturgical dancing, just glass chalices: stuff like that and bad music. “Just bad music?” It can practically kill ya.

But I have never known such peace.
 
mercygate said:
Roger everything you say here. Frankly, although I have some contact with the AU, I have found it worth the (difficult) adjustment to go cold turkey and make my uneasy peace with Catholic worship as it is found in my local parish. We don’t have hideous liturgical abuses like inclusive language and liturgical dancing, just glass chalices: stuff like that and bad music. “Just bad music?” It can practically kill ya.

But I have never known such peace.
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You are obviously where you should be then.

I don’t mean to run down the AU liturgy; it is what it is, and a friend of mine did the frontispiece for the BDW, so I feel a fondness, overall.

But the American RC hiearchy are not fans of the AU, nor were they of the original Pastoral Provision. Not as hostile as the English hierarchy, though, where a Pastoral Provision might have gone far to achieving Lord Halifax’s dream of long ago. If one had been issued for Great Britian.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
mercygate said:
Were you there? We were. Hung in as long as we could. Decades of struggle.

Well, for those who are straggling out past the battle lines, we who have already forded the Tiber are here for you: got the blankets, bandages, hot coffee, and donuts – not to mention the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord.

Takes a few years to re-hab. It’s been six years for me, and I’m still not past the PTSD.
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Nope. Before my time. But my Continuing parish was formed from among the first traditionalists out the door, even before hands first hit hairspray. And the local AU parish that was formed a couple of years later was sort of a sister parish to mine, haivng originated in the same split, mainly from the same local ECUSA parish.

GKC
 
estesbob said:
I was attendinga week day Mass at St Josephs Catholic Church on Captiol Hill a few years back and at the sign of peace the gentelmen in front of me turned around and shook my hand-it was Clarence Thomas.
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How nice!🙂
 
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