Episcopalians Reaching Point of Revolt

[genealogist]

Crosstimbers, my previous posts are for everyone obviously but mostly for the Catholics on this post that think that everyone must be Catholic right now and whatever it takes to get you to join, so be it. I very much appreciate that there are many wonderful Christians in Protestant communities; some stay Protestant, some become Catholic. Scott Hahn was a great Christian before 1986. I am glad that your Anglican parish(es) instilled a love of Jesus along with your famly. If you discern it is God’s will to cross the Tiber, welcome. Pray for me as I will pray for you.

 

[mercygate]

Greetings,
This is my first post here. I am a US Anglican considering a swim in the Tiber. Last October my parish left the Episcopal church and is now under the authority of an Anglican archbishop in South America. I live in a small town and the RC church here is also small. I went to Mass yesterday and I have to say I was unimpressed. Everyone seemed to be just going through the motions and the music was awful. Hardly anyone in the congregation even sang the hymns. BUT, as much as I love the Anglican liturgy, I’m not sure I should stake my soul on it. Its like I told my twenty-something sons…If all you look for in a wife is external beauty, you’ll get exactly the kind of wife you deserve!

Hi, crosstimbers! As one who made the swim six years ago, I can honestly say that the music does not get any better. If you want the authenticity, you just have to stand it on Sunday morning. The good part is that a lot of converts are coming into the Church – people who have read and prayed their way into the Church if Ignatius, Irenaeus, Aquinas, and Ignatius of Loyola . . . There is plenty of fellowship with those who know what the Church could be and can be when people love her. We newcomers can be part of the solution. It isn’t easy, but it is very gratifying.

For example, I LOVE teaching 6th grade CCD – teaching the kids the basic prayers in Latin, showing them around the Bible, connecting it all with the liturgy and sacraments.

God love you.

 

[crosstimbers]

Thanks Mercygate. It helps to have the encouragement of someone who has been there! I’d be interested to hear about your journey some time.

 

[mercygate]

Thanks Mercygate. It helps to have the encouragement of someone who has been there! I’d be interested to hear about your journey some time.

Go to ewtn.com and click on “libraries” then “audio” search for Journey Home. I was on The Journey Home on August 9, 2004. . … .

Keep me posted!

 

[crosstimbers]

Thanks, I’ll do it. We don’t get EWTN here in the Baptist Belt but I’ve been listening to their podcast and found it very encouraging.

Blessings and Happy New Year!

 

[rr1213]

No you can’t. But neither can you jump the Tiber on a whim because you are trying to escape somewhere else. I’m not “picking a religion”, I’m trying to discern where God wants me and I intend to do that carefully and soberly. The Anglican Church, for all it lacks from a Catholic perspective, is where I first met Jesus. It is where I was married and baptized my babies and buried my mother. It is not a small thing what I am considering and has involved much grief and tears. Please keep that in mind when you greet other Anglicans who are serious enough about their faith to show up here.

Amen. Be open to the possibility that the Catholic Church is where you are now lead and, also, to the possibility that is not the case.

 

[mercygate]

No you can’t. But neither can you jump the Tiber on a whim because you are trying to escape somewhere else. I’m not “picking a religion”, I’m trying to discern where God wants me and I intend to do that carefully and soberly. The Anglican Church, for all it lacks from a Catholic perspective, is where I first met Jesus. It is where I was married and baptized my babies and buried my mother. It is not a small thing what I am considering and has involved much grief and tears. Please keep that in mind when you greet other Anglicans who are serious enough about their faith to show up here.

Let me venture something further. Not only did you first meet Jesus in the Anglican Church, you first met the catholic faith there. When I came over the river, there was NOTHING about Catholicism that I had not learned and understood through my experience as an Anglican. I even understood the difference between the Anglican and Catholic views of the papacy, and along with Archbishop Michael Ramsay of blessed memory, believed that the Bishop of Rome was the head of the Church.

Tears? Buckets of 'em. The Tiber is a river of tears – tears of grief for what we have left behind, and tears of joy for what we receive when we finally collapse on the other side.

You, and all the Anglicans who are this struggle, are in my prayers. The timing is different for everybody; only you will know when the moment is right, but if I had it tio do over again, I would come over sooner rather than later. I wasted a good decade . . . .

Pax.

 

[crosstimbers]

Let me venture something further. Not only did you first meet Jesus in the Anglican Church, you first met the catholic faith there. When I came over the river, there was NOTHING about Catholicism that I had not learned and understood through my experience as an Anglican. I even understood the difference between the Anglican and Catholic views of the papacy, and along with Archbishop Michael Ramsay of blessed memory, believed that the Bishop of Rome was the head of the Church.

Mercygate,
I listened to your Journey Home episode today. We have had very similar journeys in many ways. Like you, I have always believed in the Real Presence. But I am having trouble with the papacy, especially with the infalliblity part. Can you suggest any reading that might be helpful in this area?
Thanks so much for your encouragement and prayers.

 

[mercygate]

Mercygate,
I listened to your Journey Home episode today. We have had very similar journeys in many ways. Like you, I have always believed in the Real Presence. But I am having trouble with the papacy, especially with the infalliblity part. Can you suggest any reading that might be helpful in this area?
Thanks so much for your encouragement and prayers.

Hey, Timbers!

I really don’t have at my fingertips any references on papal primacy. There is that compelling passage in Irenaeus of Lyons, of course. But for me, it came down to Scripture: “thou art Peter,” followed by the promise that Christ would not defect from His Church – the doctrine of indefectibility – held to by all Apostolic Churches, East and West. Even the Orthodox understand the principle of unity as witnessed by their refusal to attempt an ecumenical council without the West. It just did not make sense to me that individual ‘episcopal entities’ could be, sui juris, “church” without the rest of the Church.

What closed the book for me on the Anglican Communion was the unilateral ordination of women to the priesthood against the counsel and pleas of the rest of the catholic/orthodox Christian world.

As I mentioned in that episode of The Journey Home, the question came to me one day in prayer: If you have Apostolic Succession, and Peter is not in your house of bishops, what are you thinking?

 

[JohnCarroll]

Greetings,
This is my first post here. I am a US Anglican considering a swim in the Tiber. Last October my parish left the Episcopal church and is now under the authority of an Anglican archbishop in South America. I live in a small town and the RC church here is also small. I went to Mass yesterday and I have to say I was unimpressed. Everyone seemed to be just going through the motions and the music was awful. Hardly anyone in the congregation even sang the hymns. BUT, as much as I love the Anglican liturgy, I’m not sure I should stake my soul on it. Its like I told my twenty-something sons…If all you look for in a wife is external beauty, you’ll get exactly the kind of wife you deserve!

This is the very problem my family is going through. I never thought I would have to be less Catholic in order to actually BE Catholic. No hymns to speak of, no altar rail, poor preaching ( usually), the Eucharist treated casually by most , and all in all this makes for a Liturgy without the dignity God deserves. Feeling this way, should we become Catholic anyway? I think we may do it anyway. As one priest said, " Come on in , it’s awful!."

Whenever this subject comes up hear on line, the responders usually misunderstand the problems for us Episcopalians. To see what we are talking about , slip into a faithful Episcopalian service some Sunday ( if you can find one). Hold yourself back, you may want to convert, but don’t. It’s great beauty and dignity are a revelation to most folks. (This is why the Pope has asked Archbishop Myers of Newark to start a process for helping Episcopalians come into the Catholic Church-- with their own liturgy. ) Did you happen to catch the funeral of President Ford today ? This service was only slightly more beautiful than you might find at a local parish. Honestly. Many catholics around here seem to feel a mass is just fine as long as it is valid. A lot goes on in the mass besides the reception of the Sacrament and all of those other things serve to woo a person to God or repel him as the case may be. I am not talking about entertainment. I am talking about allowing the soul to readily commune with God. This was the problem we have had: it is as if we were asked every Sunday to treat God disrespectfully. It gets on our nerves after a while!

Please forgive my bull in a china closet post. As I said , we are seriously thinking about joining --and soon.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Whenever this subject comes up hear on line, the responders usually misunderstand the problems for us Episcopalians. To see what we are talking about , slip into a faithful Episcopalian service some Sunday ( if you can find one). Hold yourself back, you may want to convert, but don’t. It’s great beauty and dignity are a revelation to most folks. (This is why the Pope has asked Archbishop Myers of Newark to start a process for helping Episcopalians come into the Catholic Church-- with their own liturgy.)

We have an High Church Anglican (I don’t know the actual title, but that is descriptive) parish in Omaha that celebrates their liturgy much like a Tridentine Mass in English, with altar boys in cassock/surplice, priest in beautiful vestments and biretta, high altar, the whole deal.

Did you happen to catch the funeral of President Ford today ? This service was only slightly more beautiful than you might find at a local parish. Honestly. Many catholics around here seem to feel a mass is just fine as long as it is valid.

That is a very true statement. People try to accuse the “pre-Vatican II” Church with being too concerned about bare validity yet I too think that folks do exactly the same thing. Get 'em in, get 'em out in 45 min flat. You said the right words, good enough. No homily? Even better…

That is a sad way to assist at Mass or to celebrate Mass.

A lot goes on in the mass besides the reception of the Sacrament and all of those other things serve to woo a person to God or repel him as the case may be. I am not talking about entertainment. I am talking about allowing the soul to readily commune with God. This was the problem we have had: it is as if we were asked every Sunday to treat God disrespectfully. It gets on our nerves after a while!

That’s why, when visiting a city, I don’t have a problem with driving across town to a TLM or traditionally minded NO parish even if “St. John’s Catholic Community” is right across the street.

 

[mercygate]

This is the very problem my family is going through. I never thought I would have to be less Catholic in order to actually BE Catholic. No hymns to speak of, no altar rail, poor preaching ( usually), the Eucharist treated casually by most , and all in all this makes for a Liturgy without the dignity God deserves. Feeling this way, should we become Catholic anyway? I think we may do it anyway. As one priest said, " Come on in , it’s awful!."

Whenever this subject comes up hear on line, the responders usually misunderstand the problems for us Episcopalians. To see what we are talking about , slip into a faithful Episcopalian service some Sunday ( if you can find one). Hold yourself back, you may want to convert, but don’t. It’s great beauty and dignity are a revelation to most folks. (This is why the Pope has asked Archbishop Myers of Newark to start a process for helping Episcopalians come into the Catholic Church-- with their own liturgy. ) Did you happen to catch the funeral of President Ford today ? This service was only slightly more beautiful than you might find at a local parish. Honestly. Many catholics around here seem to feel a mass is just fine as long as it is valid. A lot goes on in the mass besides the reception of the Sacrament and all of those other things serve to woo a person to God or repel him as the case may be. I am not talking about entertainment. I am talking about allowing the soul to readily commune with God. This was the problem we have had: it is as if we were asked every Sunday to treat God disrespectfully. It gets on our nerves after a while!

Please forgive my bull in a china closet post. As I said , we are seriously thinking about joining --and soon.

C’mon in! We refugees are having an impact. Who knows what may come of it? I’m teaching my 6th grade CCD class the Our Father, Hail Mary, In nomine Patris, and Gloria Patri in Latin.

The Catholic Church needs us: BAD!

 

[AuntMartha]

C’mon in! We refugees are having an impact. Who knows what may come of it? I’m teaching my 6th grade CCD class the Our Father, Hail Mary, In nomine Patris, and Gloria Patri in Latin.

The Catholic Church needs us: BAD!

You know, it’s getting a little annoying to continually read about how these former Anglicans/Episcopalians are going to come in and teach us Catholic country bumpkins how to do a Mass up proper. As though there isn’t a Catholic Church around that can produce decent, reverent music. Sure there are bad ones, but let’s not get carried away with the put downs and puffing up about how great Anglicans/Episcopalians are musically. At my Parish, there is an excellent, devoted music director who has the choir sing beautiful music: Gregorian Chant, Mozart, Palestrina, Faure, and so forth. At a TLM parish in the city - gorgeous music. Where my cousin’s wedding was - also gorgeous. As a musician/choir member myself, I think I am accurate in my assessment. Surely these are not the only parishes with good music in my area.

I’m glad for people who happen to be excellent musicians joining the Catholic Church, but I really don’t like hearing put-downs from them.

 

[JohnCarroll]

You know, it’s getting a little annoying to continually read about how these former Anglicans/Episcopalians are going to come in and teach us Catholic country bumpkins how to do a Mass up proper. As though there isn’t a Catholic Church around that can produce decent, reverent music. Sure there are bad ones, but let’s not get carried away with the put downs and puffing up about how great Anglicans/Episcopalians are musically. At my Parish, there is an excellent, devoted music director who has the choir sing beautiful music: Gregorian Chant, Mozart, Palestrina, Faure, and so forth. At a TLM parish in the city - gorgeous music. Where my cousin’s wedding was - also gorgeous. As a musician/choir member myself, I think I am accurate in my assessment. Surely these are not the only parishes with good music in my area.

I’m glad for people who happen to be excellent musicians joining the Catholic Church, but I really don’t like hearing put-downs from them.

You are quite right. I felt the same way about my post after I wrote it. My post came out of a year of trying to find a parish in my diocese. I know there are great Catholic Parishes all over the place–I just wish I could find one near me. Actually we have found one --a chinese Catholic mission . They haven’t solved the music thing but they have reverence in spades.

 

[francesco920]

You know, it’s getting a little annoying to continually read about how these former Anglicans/Episcopalians are going to come in and teach us Catholic country bumpkins how to do a Mass up proper. As though there isn’t a Catholic Church around that can produce decent, reverent music. Sure there are bad ones, but let’s not get carried away with the put downs and puffing up about how great Anglicans/Episcopalians are musically. At my Parish, there is an excellent, devoted music director who has the choir sing beautiful music: Gregorian Chant, Mozart, Palestrina, Faure, and so forth. At a TLM parish in the city - gorgeous music. Where my cousin’s wedding was - also gorgeous. As a musician/choir member myself, I think I am accurate in my assessment. Surely these are not the only parishes with good music in my area.

I’m glad for people who happen to be excellent musicians joining the Catholic Church, but I really don’t like hearing put-downs from them.

Sounds like someone is feeling like the brother of the prodigal son.

Of course there are great Catholic parishes with great music, but Anglo-Catholic converts to the Church can and have contributed so much! I know it is an unpleasant reality, but the Church needs orthodox reformers really badly, and I don’t care where they come from as long as they uphold the true orthodox Catholic faith.

God bless all of you Episcopalians/Anglicans who have converted to or are in the process of converting to the Catholic faith! We are always, ALWAYS overjoyed when our separated brothers and sisters come back

 

[rr1213]

Sounds like someone is feeling like the brother of the prodigal son.

Of course there are great Catholic parishes with great music, but Anglo-Catholic converts to the Church can and have contributed so much! I know it is an unpleasant reality, but the Church needs orthodox reformers really badly, and I don’t care where they come from as long as they uphold the true orthodox Catholic faith.

God bless all of you Episcopalians/Anglicans who have converted to or are in the process of converting to the Catholic faith! We are always, ALWAYS overjoyed when our separated brothers and sisters come back

A pretty mature and wise viewpoint for someone so young. Seriously. My hat’s off to you.

 

[crosstimbers]

Aunt Martha,
I can totally understand your annoyance! I’m sorry that we sounded like we were putting you down. After all, if we come to believe that Truth resides in Catholic Church that is all that matters! I live in a very small town in the middle of the Baptist Belt where Catholic churches and indeed, Catholics themselves sometimes seem a little thin on the ground. In a larger community with a larger parish I might have had a totally different experience. Please forgive us Anglicans. We do not mean to offend. We’re just battle-weary.
P.S. I really DO have an Aunt Martha!

 

[mercygate]

Aunt Martha,
I can totally understand your annoyance! I’m sorry that we sounded like we were putting you down. After all, if we come to believe that Truth resides in Catholic Church that is all that matters! I live in a very small town in the middle of the Baptist Belt where Catholic churches and indeed, Catholics themselves sometimes seem a little thin on the ground. In a larger community with a larger parish I might have had a totally different experience. Please forgive us Anglicans. We do not mean to offend. We’re just battle-weary.
P.S. I really DO have an Aunt Martha!

My apologies also. I Do have great Catholilc liturgy within striking distance: St. Agnes Church and Our Saviour in New York are only 45 minutes away from my home – unless there’s traffic, when it takes 90 minutes.