Epistemology: How Does Realism Overcome Idealism?

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It merely points to the fact that the brain is an instrument used by the mind.
How? Magic?
How does a lump of tissue know it exists, control itself and grasp abstract truths? Where is its control-centre? How is it responsible for its activity? By magic??
There is absolutely no evidence that matter produces mind.
Only the discoveries of medical science… Mapping brain activities to frames of mind.
The fact that brain activity is **related to **mental activity does not prove that it **causes **mental activity.
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My friend, your reasoning is not just inadequate, it is plain nonsensical.
How do you explain the fact that hypnosis can produce physical changes? Or do you deny it? My friend, your reasoning is not just inadequate, it is plain nonsensical.
Hypnosis is one example. Physical changes in the body have been caused by the power of suggestion. Meditation is another. The success of science is another.
All of them are physical activities.
A sheer assumption. Where is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are physical activities?
The mind alone cannot produce any physical effects. Show one example to the contrary.
You are obviously out of touch with reality. There are many physical effects that hypnosis has achieved. I myself have induced a trance in which I anaesthetised my arm when it was in contact with a hot radiator and was surprised to see two blisters appear. Others who practise mind control can alter their heart rate, other physical functions and even enter a state of suspended animation.
 
How does a lump of tissue know it exists, control itself and grasp abstract truths? Where is its control-centre? How is it responsible for its activity? By magic??
How does a lump of metal perform very complex activities, like playing chess? Does this fact point to some “magical” substance, which just happens to **use **the material object (computer) for its own purposes?
The fact that brain activity is **related to **mental activity does not prove that it **causes **mental activity.
What kind of proof are you looking for? In science we don’t “prove” anything. We make a hypothesis, conduct experiments and as long the experiments show what the hypothesis predicts, we are content with our hypothesis. Every experiment so far points to the fact that the mind is the activity of the brain. No experience was conducted which would make us doubt. So, as long as evidence to the contrary appears, the hypothesis will be provisionally accepted.
A sheer assumption. Where is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are physical activities?
I give you a chance to prove your point. Go ahead, and think about hypnotizing me, and see if it happens. Or try to hypnotize someone in the next building… without any physical contact. Let me know what happens. If, by thoughts alone you can hypnotize someone, you will qualify for 1 million dollar prize offered by the Randi Foundation. 🙂 Return only when you succeeded… I am prepared to wait a very long time… forever? (Probably no such luck.)
 
How does a lump of tissue know it exists, control itself and grasp abstract truths? Where is its control-centre? How is it responsible for its activity? By magic??
How does a lump of metal perform very complex activities, like playing chess?
Because it has been **programmed **by computer scientists.
Does this fact point to some “magical” substance, which just happens to use the material object (computer) for its own purposes?
It points to a person who does not happen to use the material object but chooses to **design **a programme which implements strategies devised by chess players for use in machines designed by computer scientists.
The fact that brain activity is related to mental activity does not prove that it causes mental activity.
Every experiment so far points to the fact that the mind is the activity of the brain.
Every experiment so far points to the fact that the activity of the brain is related to the activity of the mind.
No experience was conducted which would make us doubt. So, as long as evidence to the contrary appears, the hypothesis will be provisionally accepted.
The evidence to the contrary **already exists **in the facts of consciousness, free will, qualia, abstract thought and the power of the mind.
Where is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are physical activities?
I give you a chance to prove your point. Go ahead, and think about hypnotizing me, and see if it happens.
I am not a hypnotist and have never claimed to be. I have simply used self-hypnosis which everyone is capable of learning…
Where is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are **physical **activities?
 
Because it has been **programmed **by computer scientists.
That is not an answer to the question what I asked. Yes it has been programmed, but the activity itself is not “transcendant”, nor does it point to some immaterial “soul”. Its activity is purely physical, the moving of electrons via the circuits, just like the activity of the brain, where the electrons move through the neurons. In neither case is there a need to suppose anything over and beyond that.
Every experiment so far points to the fact that the activity of the brain is related to the activity of the mind.
Is the activity of the computer merely “related” to the movements of the electrons?
The evidence to the contrary **already exists **in the facts of consciousness, free will, qualia, abstract thought and the power of the mind.
All those are the result of the emerging attribute called consciousness.The complexity of the brain is the only assumption that biologists and neuroscientists make - and they are able to achieve splendid success.
I am not a hypnotist and have never claimed to be. I have simply used self-hypnosis which everyone is capable of learning…
Well, then find one, and ask him to hypnotize someone in the neighboring building. Don’t just give up… learn how to hypnotize, and see for yourself.
Where is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are **physical **activities?
Go and learn a bit in college. Biology would be helpful.

By the way, you came back too fast without attempting to hypnotize me. The evasion that you are not a hypnotist just tells me that you like to talk about subjects, which you know very little about…
 
All of them are physical activities. The mind alone cannot produce any physical effects. Show one example to the contrary.
I wish this were so obvious I didn’t have to mention it, but…

By simply imagining certain situations, without any physical motion or sensory cue at all, a human being can become sexually aroused. If you haven’t had occasion to experience this, then you are a better man than I.
 
Tonyrey

There is no evidence that matter has produced mind - nor is there evidence that mind has produced matter - but there is evidence that mind is more powerful than matter.

This was certainly the position of Plato, who regarded the pre-Socratic thinkers as hopelessly immersed in the mechanics of the universe. It was against science as Democritus knew it that Plato rebelled, and it was against idealism as Plato knew it that Aristotle rebelled.

Round and round we go! With the exception of the mathematicians, who are always the ones playing with several aces in the hole, modern science is hopelessly wed to mechanics.

If the universe is mindless, how and why did it produce mind?

Why do the laws of the universe and the laws of human reason correspond and meet in what is called truth?

Oops! An accident!
 
That is not an answer to the question what I asked. Yes it has been programmed, but the activity itself is not “transcendant”, nor does it point to some immaterial “soul”. Its activity is purely physical, the moving of electrons via the circuits, just like the activity of the brain, where the electrons move through the neurons. In neither case is there a need to suppose anything over and beyond that.
From the movie I Robot: “Why is it that robots stored in empty space will seek out each other rather than stand alone? How we do explain this behavior?”
 
Its activity is purely physical, the moving of electrons via the circuits, just like the activity of the brain, where the electrons move through the neurons.
  1. Are you implying that the mind is merely a biological computer?
Every experiment so far points to the fact that the activity of the brain is related to the activity of the mind.
  1. If the mind is simply a biological computer how do you explain consciousness and free will - given that machines are not generally associated with consciousness and free will?
The complexity of the brain is the only assumption that biologists and neuroscientists make - and they are able to achieve splendid success.
  1. How exactly how does an increase in complexity explain consciousness?
All those are the result of the emerging attribute called consciousness.
  1. How exactly have free will, qualia, abstract thought and the power of the mind emerged from consciousness?
  2. What is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are physical activities?
 
Tonyrey

There is no evidence that matter has produced mind - nor is there evidence that mind has produced matter - but there is evidence that mind is more powerful than matter.

This was certainly the position of Plato, who regarded the pre-Socratic thinkers as hopelessly immersed in the mechanics of the universe. It was against science as Democritus knew it that Plato rebelled, and it was against idealism as Plato knew it that Aristotle rebelled.

Round and round we go! With the exception of the mathematicians, who are always the ones playing with several aces in the hole, modern science is hopelessly wed to mechanics.

If the universe is mindless, how and why did it produce mind?

Why do the laws of the universe and the laws of human reason correspond and meet in what is called truth?

Oops! An accident!
There is another reality that materialists never explain:

How did purpose emerge from that which is purposeless? 🙂
 
OK, let’s examine these immaterial entites.
  1. Distance. It is not an ontological object. It is a relationship between 2 ontological objects.
  2. Before and behind. These are not ontological objects. They are positions based upon a specific point of observation.
  3. Abstactions. The concept of a chair. There is no ontological object called an abstract chair, it exists as a mental image, based upon actual chairs.
  4. Warm and cold. Not ontological objects. They describe our subjective feelings based upon the Brownian motion of molecules.
  5. Movement. It is not an ontological object, it is an action performed by ontological objects.
  6. Imaginary objects, the products of our imagination. Literary characters, symphonies. The same applies.
  1. Distance. It is not an ontological object. It is a relationship between 2 ontological objects.
It is true that distance is the relationship between two ontological objects but distance itself has being.
  1. Before and behind. These are not ontological objects. They are positions based upon a specific point of observation.
Yes, but we have the idea of before, and behind, and this idea itself is an immaterial form.
  1. Abstactions. The concept of a chair. There is no ontological object called an abstract chair, it exists as a mental image, based upon actual chairs.
Abstraction itself obtains knowledge of what does not actually exist. You are able to obtain the idea of what is potentially actual. Please tell me how through purely material means how you would be able to know what does not actually exist.
  1. Warm and cold. Not ontological objects. They describe our subjective feelings based upon the Brownian motion of molecules.
Warm and cold are accidental properties of substances. The idea of warm and cold is separate from our minds. Cold is just a deficiency of heat.
  1. Movement. It is not an ontological object, it is an action performed by ontological objects.
You don’t think the motion from non-being to being actually exists? You don’t think changes actually exist? In every motion there is, the motion itself, a mover, the thing being moved, and a state that it is moved to. That motion is part of objective reality.
  1. Imaginary objects, the products of our imagination. Literary characters, symphonies.
They are ideas, therefore immaterial, until those ideas are actualized. The active intellect depends on the passive intellect though. The passive intellect depends on the brain.

The problem with materialists is they get too bogged down in the details, and loose their way. We know that thoughts in the brain rely on the firing of neurons. We know that cold is caused by the slowed movement of particles. However there is an idea of cold, and the idea is “cold is the deficiency of heat.” This truth of cold is objective to our minds, because this is what cold is!
 
I wish this were so obvious I didn’t have to mention it, but…

By simply imagining certain situations, without any physical motion or sensory cue at all, a human being can become sexually aroused. If you haven’t had occasion to experience this, then you are a better man than I.
That is an interesting idea, but does not really apply. Indeed, the mind and the body are not separate entities, the mind is the product of the brain. Can the mind influence something that is outside its realm? Can anyone - just by thinking, wanting, wishing - do something that effects the outside reality?

Of course Uri Geller claims that it can, but he is just a clever (and dishonest) stage magician. It is well known that the Randi Foundation has a 1 million dollar reward for anyone, who can present a demonstration that the mind can accomplish anything outside the physical realm. No wonder that there are very few takers, and no successes.
 
From the movie I Robot: “Why is it that robots stored in empty space will seek out each other rather than stand alone? How we do explain this behavior?”
We would have to know how their mind works to answer that.
 
  1. Are you implying that the mind is merely a biological computer?
  2. If the mind is simply a biological computer how do you explain consciousness and free will - given that machines are not generally associated with consciousness and free will?
  3. How exactly how does an increase in complexity explain consciousness?
  4. How exactly have free will, qualia, abstract thought and the power of the mind emerged from consciousness?
  5. What is the evidence that hypnosis, suggestion, meditation and abstract scientific thought are physical activities?
  1. Not exactly. The brain is the computer, and the mind is the “program” that is running on it.
  2. Those machines cannot even come close to the complexity of the brain. No wonder that their behavior is much simpler. Nevertheless, there are learning algorithms, which evolve and change as their (name removed by moderator)ut is processed. Their behavior cannot be predicted based upon the original programming, and their internal structure is vastly different from the original state.
  3. and 4) are being investigated.
  4. I already answered that.
Did you already seek out a hypnotist, and started to investigate how hypnotism works?
 
It is true that distance is the relationship between two ontological objects but distance itself has being.

Yes, but we have the idea of before, and behind, and this idea itself is an immaterial form.

Abstraction itself obtains knowledge of what does not actually exist. You are able to obtain the idea of what is potentially actual. Please tell me how through purely material means how you would be able to know what does not actually exist.

Warm and cold are accidental properties of substances. The idea of warm and cold is separate from our minds. Cold is just a deficiency of heat.

You don’t think the motion from non-being to being actually exists? You don’t think changes actually exist? In every motion there is, the motion itself, a mover, the thing being moved, and a state that it is moved to. That motion is part of objective reality.

They are ideas, therefore immaterial, until those ideas are actualized. The active intellect depends on the passive intellect though. The passive intellect depends on the brain.

The problem with materialists is they get too bogged down in the details, and loose their way. We know that thoughts in the brain rely on the firing of neurons. We know that cold is caused by the slowed movement of particles. However there is an idea of cold, and the idea is “cold is the deficiency of heat.” This truth of cold is objective to our minds, because this is what cold is!
The word “existence” covers two different meanings: physical existence, and conceptual existence. There should be two different words to describe each, because as it is, it is easy to confuse them.

Physical existence is “simple”. It is STEM: space, time, energy and matter - the basis of everything. Conceptual existence is a bit more complex, the examples were **relationships **between physical objects, **attributes **of physical objects, (descriptions of reality) and also wholly imaginary objects, etc… These immaterial entities are the products of our minds. By concensus we agree that “two” and “zwei” **mean **the same thing, even though the brain states are different. For someone who does not speak German, the utterance “zwei” is totally meaningless.

There in no meaning outside our minds. Just like cold and warm do not exist outside our perception. They are the subjective descriptions of the Brownian motion of the molecules.

Motion is an activity of some phisical object. Change is an activity of some physical object. There is no such “thing” as “motion” or “change” as separate entities. These ideas are not actualized, they are the distillations of the observed reality, a “picture” of the reality. To assert the opposite is truly putting the cart in front of the horse.
 
The word “existence” covers two different meanings: physical existence, and conceptual existence. There should be two different words to describe each, because as it is, it is easy to confuse them.

Physical existence is “simple”. It is STEM: space, time, energy and matter - the basis of everything. Conceptual existence is a bit more complex, the examples were **relationships **between physical objects, **attributes **of physical objects, (descriptions of reality) and also wholly imaginary objects, etc… These immaterial entities are the products of our minds. By concensus we agree that “two” and “zwei” **mean **the same thing, even though the brain states are different. For someone who does not speak German, the utterance “zwei” is totally meaningless.

There in no meaning outside our minds. Just like cold and warm do not exist outside our perception. They are the subjective descriptions of the Brownian motion of the molecules.

Motion is an activity of some phisical object. Change is an activity of some physical object. There is no such “thing” as “motion” or “change” as separate entities. These ideas are not actualized, they are the distillations of the observed reality, a “picture” of the reality. To assert the opposite is truly putting the cart in front of the horse.
The word “existence” covers two different meanings: physical existence, and conceptual existence. There should be two different words to describe each, because as it is, it is easy to confuse them.
Things have either actual existence or potential existence, and we can know things that potentially exist via our imagination.
physical existence is “simple”. It is STEM: space, time, energy and matter - the basis of everything. .
You are narrowing actual existence here – immaterial things also actually exist.
Conceptual existence is a bit more complex, the examples were **relationships **between physical objects, **attributes **of physical objects, (descriptions of reality) and also wholly imaginary objects, etc… These immaterial entities are the products of our minds.
Many conceptual things actually exist. I reject your form of idealism, these attributes and relationships are not just part of our minds, they exist objectively. In order to know them our intellect needs to correspond to them. Truth is the conformity of the intellect to the things.
For someone who does not speak German, the utterance “zwei” is totally meaningless.
This is due to our ability to create. We can create concepts and ideas through or imaginative faculties. This is subjective truth to the people who speak German. We created this idea, that had potential existence, and people profess it as truth one their intellect is in conformity with it. All we are doing is selecting certain sounds to represent ideas, so we can exchange ideas and communicate. Language is something that we create, it did not have actual existence before we created it, it only potentially existed. In this case God created language in so far as he gave it potential existence, which is a “shade” of existence. Humans actualized language, and therefore it is not universal.
There in no meaning outside our minds. Just like cold and warm do not exist outside our perception. They are the subjective descriptions of the Brownian motion of the molecules.
I reject that the idea of cold only existing in our minds. The idea of cold, which is the deficiency of heat, is objectively true and we can only know it when our intellect corresponds to this particular objective truth. It is true people may have have different ideas of what is hotter and what is colder, based on the senses, but the idea of cold remains the same.
Motion is an activity of some phisical object. Change is an activity of some physical object. There is no such “thing” as “motion” or “change” as separate entities. These ideas are not actualized, they are the distillations of the observed reality, a “picture” of the reality. To assert the opposite is truly putting the cart in front of the horse.
Again I am not speaking specifically of physical motion, I am speaking of metaphysical motion. There are two types of change, substantial change and accidental change. Accidental change is a change that does not change the essence of the substance, like when a man becomes a musician. There is an actual motion (accidental change) that moves a man to a musician. An example of a substantial change is when a burning log becomes ash. There is a instant where the form of the log ceases to exist, and it becomes ash. There is a motion of log to ash.
 
I reject that the idea of cold only existing in our minds. The idea of cold, which is the deficiency of heat, is objectively true and we can only know it when our intellect corresponds to this particular objective truth.
That is your problem.

There is an objective Brownian motion of the molecules. The sensory organs in our skin interpret this as temperature. We arbitrarily divide this temperature into categories, and we call them “warm”, “cold”, “hot”, freezing", “scorching”, etc…

There is the objective vibration of the air. We use our sensory organ (ear) and percieve this vibration and call it “sound”. Some of these vibrations we arbitrarily call musical notes (for example middle “C”). But there is no “objective” middle “C”, that would exist ourside our categorization.

There are electromagentic waves, with certain frequencies. Some of those we percieve via our eyes, and we arbitrarily subdivide them into “colors”. There are no objective “colors”, outside our perceptions.

And so on… I heard before that concepts “exist” as “abstract objects”, and we merely "discover them. Total and complete nonsense - and useless at that.
 
If the mind is produced by the brain - which functions according to physical laws - free will must be an illusion.
Possibly, but not necessarily. Not all physical laws are deterministic.
An increase in complexity does not **explain **consciousness.
How would you **know **that?
An algorithm is simply a set of instructions. They remain algorithms no matter how much they change.
Obviously you never heard of heuristic algorithms.
They do not acquire new powers like becoming aware that they exist or becoming responsible for their activity.
How would you **know **that?
Unpredictability and a difference in internal structure do not** explain** consciousness or free will.
How would you **know **that?
In other words there is no scientific explanation.
No full one, yet. But the evindence supports the working hypothesis. You simply evoke the old - but not time honored - god of the gaps “theory”. Whatever we are unable to explain fully, must be of stuper-natural origin (misspelling is interntional).
 
If the mind is produced by the brain - which functions according to physical laws - free will must be an illusion.
Possibly, but not necessarily. Not all physical laws are deterministic.
Indeterminism does not explain free will. Free will presupposes the power of reason. How do random events produce the power of reason? How can there be self-control without a self?
An increase in complexity does not explain consciousness.
How would you know that?
Because there is no explanation of the mechanism by which organisms become conscious or acquire free will. It is equivalent to believing inanimate objects become aware of themselves and able to control themselves. It is an unsubstantiated hypothesis based on the gratuitous assumption that everything has a physical origin.
An algorithm is simply a set of instructions. They remain algorithms no matter how much they change.
Obviously you never heard of heuristic algorithms.
Heuristic algorithms presuppose an intelligent agent.
In other words there is no scientific explanation.
No full one, yet. But the evidence supports the working hypothesis.
No matter how improbable the working hypothesis may be you cling to it because it supports, and is supported by, the gratuitous assumption that **everything **has a physical origin.
You simply evoke the old - but not time honored - god of the gaps “theory”.
You simply evoke the old - but not time honored - “science can explain everything” hypothesis.
Whatever we are unable to explain fully, must be of stuper-natural origin (misspelling is intentional).
Whatever we are unable to explain fully must have a natural origin - even though you have not even defined “natural”, which is a convenient way of accommodating new discoveries. The goal posts of naturalism can be shifted indefinitely…

What precise reasons are there for believing everything has a physical origin? Does truth have a physical origin?
 
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