Equal persons of the Trinity

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Waynec

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Hi,
I hope this is in the right forum.

I am having a discussion with a JW about the persons of the Trinity being equal. She tells me that Jesus is the son therefore cannot be equal to the Father. That the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth to the son. (I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this) The son can do nothing without the father (for that matter neither can we).

She tells me that when Jesus says when you see me you see the father or I and my father are one, Jesus is talking about having the same ideals or thoughts as the father. By now I know all her talking points.

So–any ideas how, from scripture, I can show her how the persons of the Trinity are equal?
If it is not in the bible the JW’s won’t even consider an explanation. Of course, they don’t read the Fathers or believe any of our Traditions?

Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless
 
AussieTrish said:
Hi Wayne, to begin I checked the CAF Topics

catholic.com/tracts/the-trinity
catholic.com/tracts/god-in-three-persons
catholic.com/tracts/trinitarian-baptism

God bless
Click to expand...
Hi Trish,

I checked these links but they all fall back on the Fathers. That will not do for the JW"s.

I really would like to know where in the bible it says that the Persons of the Trinity are equal. In my reading I haven’t found any, but that doesn’t say much. I know their (JW) talking points of the ones I put in the OP.

I was taught they are equal and believe this is true. Are we as Catholics to believe this by faith only? I glanced in the CCC in the section on the Trinity but didn’t find anything I could use.
Thanks.
 
You may find this helpful. I haven’t watched it in a while, so I’m not sure if it has what you’re looking for specifically, but it’s a pretty in-depth discussion of the Trinity from a Biblical standpoint.

Cheers!

youtube.com/watch?v=Rsfmbbpe2pA
 
Waynec said:
Hi,
I hope this is in the right forum.

I am having a discussion with a JW about the persons of the Trinity being equal. She tells me that Jesus is the son therefore cannot be equal to the Father. That the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth to the son. (I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this) The son can do nothing without the father (for that matter neither can we).

She tells me that when Jesus says when you see me you see the father or I and my father are one, Jesus is talking about having the same ideals or thoughts as the father. By now I know all her talking points.

So–any ideas how, from scripture, I can show her how the persons of the Trinity are equal?
If it is not in the bible the JW’s won’t even consider an explanation. Of course, they don’t read the Fathers or believe any of our Traditions?

Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless
Click to expand...
newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
 
You can probably find writings on all sides of the issue. I have just finished reading the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture from Intervarsity Press, two volumes on the Gospel of John. These are all excerpts of early church fathers, BUT

they point to the parts of John’s gospel where you establish this equality. I write on all my books, underline, highlight, etc. and I was exceptionally delighted in how they brought out the truths of the Trinity particularly regarding Chapter 10 of the Gospel.

I will come back with another post when I review that section of the commentary. Well, I don’t know if you can convince a JW of this, I don’t know if they believe in the trinity, to begin with.

But, I think logically you have to recall the tradition of the entire Bible to use a literary device that is called anthropomorphism. So, God who is not a man, is spoken of with many attributes of a human, like a hand, like the eye of God, etc. So, knowing what we know, that there are three persons of the Trinity, the father say this

The terms Father and Son do not imply a difference of time or age or birth of the Son. Rather, the relationship of these two persons of the Trinity is LIKE or is revealed in scripture LIKE the relationship of a Father and a Son – so that WE can understand someething about them. It is an anthropomorphism that we don’t normally identify as such.

They coexisted ALWAYS. There is no nativity of the Son in heaven or no godly mother of the Son. "Begotten’’ is the word that confuses everybody but is meant to indicate the relationship of Father and Son.

The equality of the Spirit was a problem for heretics in the early Church, but only for them. I’m coming across more on the equality of the Spirit in the commentary on Acts that I’m reading. I’ll try to come back with some particular verses.

Keep in mind that JW’s use their own translation of the Bible and they have been know to completely reverse themselves on doctrinal matters. If you stumped you acquaintance with a question, he/she would “get back with you later” after they consulted somebody else. This question could go right up their chain of command to the top for a definitive JW answer.

Nowadays, you can google JW or ask.com a question and come back with the JW position, I presume. Anyway, I’ll try to come back with some verses from this commentary.
 
John 8:58 Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus is God, preeminently eternal, and here uses the divine name (in Hebrew) to refer to himself, “Jehovah” – ya know? Jehovah is the mispronunciation of
Yahweh (holy name of God).

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

This points to two persons that are of one substance in the Godhead. He uses “are” not “am” to indicate the plurality of persons.

Augustine: In his divinity he is equal to the Father, in his humanity he is subject to the father.

In one place Jesus speaks of his divinity, in another his humanity.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

(There are three persons in one Godhead. “name” not “names” )
 
Waynec said:
Hi,
I hope this is in the right forum.

I am having a discussion with a JW about the persons of the Trinity being equal. She tells me that Jesus is the son therefore cannot be equal to the Father. That the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth to the son. (I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this) The son can do nothing without the father (for that matter neither can we).

She tells me that when Jesus says when you see me you see the father or I and my father are one, Jesus is talking about having the same ideals or thoughts as the father. By now I know all her talking points.

So–any ideas how, from scripture, I can show her how the persons of the Trinity are equal?
If it is not in the bible the JW’s won’t even consider an explanation. Of course, they don’t read the Fathers or believe any of our Traditions?

Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless
Click to expand...
I believe Philippians 2:6, John 5:18, and John 5:23 all have statements identifying the Son as equal to the Father. Look up those passages.
 
Waynec said:
Hi,
I hope this is in the right forum.

I am having a discussion with a JW about the persons of the Trinity being equal. She tells me that Jesus is the son therefore cannot be equal to the Father. That the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth to the son. (I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this) The son can do nothing without the father (for that matter neither can we).

She tells me that when Jesus says when you see me you see the father or I and my father are one, Jesus is talking about having the same ideals or thoughts as the father. By now I know all her talking points.

So–any ideas how, from scripture, I can show her how the persons of the Trinity are equal?
If it is not in the bible the JW’s won’t even consider an explanation. Of course, they don’t read the Fathers or believe any of our Traditions?

Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless
Click to expand...
If you want bible passages to help you, this thread has them.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=513317&highlight=Talking+with+my+Jehovah%27s+Witness+cousin%3F&page=2
 
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