Equating culture to faith

[CoffeeFanatic]

In Orthodoxy, I’m afraid that there are too many that assume their culture is their faith. This is why we often see many who care nothing for Christ and rarely go to church except for weddings, funerals, baptisms, and maybe Christmas and Pascha, yet, somehow, they are still more Orthodox than thou as thou aren’t Greek (or Lebanese, or whatever).

I’m likely wording this poorly but on-line this is something one sees very prevalently. We see anti-semites, Orthodox nationalists, extreme misogynists, people gate-keeping who can or should be Orthodox. They’d rather see a secular person of their ethnic group being considered part of Orthodoxy than a convert from elsewhere. Actually, it’s never even a question. One can even see it in real life. I know I have at my own parish numerous times over the last fifteen years.

It’s getting very disheartening, if I’m honest. I’m a convert, a woman, not one of the preferred ethnicities, I question things, and I have never put up well with being treated like less than nothing, especially in a religious setting. The result is that even before cancelled church services and social distancing, I was avoiding my Orthodox parish like the plague and visiting masses. What I’m really asking is if Eastern Catholicism is also like this? I know that certain elements (especially misogyny) can also exist in the Latin rite (though I get the impression it is few and far between).

Please reassure me here. Is Catholicism better in this respect?

 

[porthos11]

In Orthodoxy, I’m afraid that there are too many that assume their culture is their faith. This is why we often see many who care nothing for Christ and rarely go to church except for weddings, funerals, baptisms, and maybe Christmas and Pascha, yet, somehow, they are still more Orthodox than thou as thou aren’t Greek (or Lebanese, or whatever).

I’m likely wording this poorly but on-line this is something one sees very prevalently. We see anti-semites, Orthodox nationalists, extreme misogynists, people gate-keeping who can or should be Orthodox. They’d rather see a secular person of their ethnic group being considered part of Orthodoxy than a convert from elsewhere. Actually, it’s never even a question. One can even see it in real life. I know I have at my own parish numerous times over the last fifteen years.

It’s getting very disheartening, if I’m honest. I’m a convert, a woman, not one of the preferred ethnicities, I question things, and I have never put up well with being treated like less than nothing, especially in a religious setting. The result is that even before cancelled church services and social distancing, I was avoiding my Orthodox parish like the plague and visiting masses. What I’m really asking is if Eastern Catholicism is also like this? I know that certain elements (especially misogyny) can also exist in the Latin rite (though I get the impression it is few and far between).

Please reassure me here. Is Catholicism better in this respect?

No. Because the Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners, not a mansion of saints.

I don’t know what you’ll find in any given Catholic church. Each church has its own set of jerks and idiots, and that is true from the universal Church to the individual parish.

If you are looking at Catholicism to get away from sins, real or perceived, that affect you in your current church, you are looking at Catholicism for the wrong reason. You enter the Catholic Church, and all you will find are a whole new set of sins and sinners to be offended about. You will see cafeteria Catholics, you will see extreme traditionalists, you will see pro-abortion activists receiving Communion, and a whole other mix of sin and scandal. Because we are sinners.

If you look to Catholicism, it must be because you think that somehow, somehwere, the Catholic Church teaches the Truth. And if you can see this, then you stick with the Catholic Church because of Jesus Christ. Not because it has a set of sinners you can better tolerate.

 

[Isaac14]

I don’t doubt at all your experience in your Orthodox parish, though it is incredibly disheartening to hear. Sadly this happens too often.

My personal experience has been quite the opposite. I’m a part of an Orthodox Church in America parish that basically serves all backgrounds of “old-country” as well as converts. The priest (and our Bishop) make a point to emphasize that faith not background is what unites us.

I presume you’re in the US, in which case with the relative scarcity of Orthodox parishes, it’ll be difficult to find a different one that doesn’t have these same characteristics that you rightfully lament.

Being Orthodox myself, I won’t “officially” council leaving the Orthodox Church, I would also say that you need to what is best for your salvation and spiritual health. Even accounting for the “warts and all” caution of the post above, you may find that in your particular circumstances, the local Catholic Church provides a better place to work out your salvation. Regardless, though, much prayer is needed for such serious decisions.

 

[ziapueblo]

What I’m really asking is if Eastern Catholicism is also like this?

In some Churches. I have a friend that is Ukrainian Catholic living in the Chicago area and he is also a PK (priest kid). He has been outed from his parish for wanting more English in the Divine Liturgy. Now, this doesn’t happen in every Greek Catholic parish just like it doesn’t happen in every Orthodox parish. My Greek Orthodox parish has a small minority of actual “Greeks”. Everyone else is Anglo, Hispanic or African American and only a very small percentage of the Liturgy is done in Greek.

These ethnic issues are human issues, not Church ones.

ZP

 

[George720]

In Orthodoxy, I’m afraid that there are too many
that assume their culture is their faith.

We see anti-semites,
Orthodox nationalists,
extreme misogynists,
people gate-keeping who can or should be Orthodox.

I’m a convert, a woman, not one of the preferred ethnicities,
I question things, and
I have never put up well with being treated like less than nothing,
especially in a religious setting.

What a challenge!

I would recommend having compassion on these folks… You can and will find the same in any national church, even the American ones… Would you prefer a parish full of back slapping Dallas Cowboy fans giving you a big ol’ slap on the below-very lower back just like they do the running backs and yelling at you to “give 'em heck, Molly!”??? Or would you prefer quilting bees? Or Bingo? How about a car show, or antique malls? Local gossip clubs anyone?

What a Gift you have from God in this parish!

Because the only thing you can receive from it is God…

Because it has nothing else you can receive!

And you are complaining???

We do tend to see our own culture as non-ethnic - After all, the USA is a melting pot, right? But go to the ROC parish in SF and you will see a bunch of Chinese parishioners, descended from the orphans St. John brought from Shanghai, whose families that remained behind were all massacred…

People are different in different cultures…

We are no different…

I love your handle, btw… I too relate well to a really good cup of coffee…

StumpTown Ethopian is really good, for instance!

But if Church is a social club, and you need social reinforcement, you will need to pick the social ethnicity in a Church that will give you what you see yourself as needing… But the truth is, for us all, and for those misery-loving misogynists too… The truth is we need God…

May God bless your walk…

geo

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

In Orthodoxy, I’m afraid that there are too many that assume their culture is their faith.

I have been struggling with this as well, for it is the heresy of ethnophyletism that confuses the Orthodox (Catholic) Faith which is Universal and for every culture and every time with a particular culture or people. Kinda like many Americans I know who assume just because you are American you are automatically (Evangelical) Christian, never mind you never go church or read the Bible, or struggle to live a Christian life.

But I would say that this a sickness attacking the Body of Christ, rather than the official right-belief of the Holy Fathers. As a convert from a majority convert parish that is busy creating its own particular “American Orthodox ghetto”, I sympathize with how disheartening this problem is and see the attraction of Catholicism. However, bitter experience has shown this sinner, that no matter where you go, there you are, and there are going to be human failings and scandals no matter what parish or faith you are part of, we simply have to enter into the struggle to overcome with Christ, for He has overcome the world.

After all, I don’t know about you, but I became Orthodox to grow closer to Christ, and perhaps this struggle that we both have is prove we are too attached to the worldly, earthly side of parish life, and our merciful Lord is using this pain to cleanse us and refocus us on the one thing needful: sitting at the feet of Jesus and loving Him.

Good strength for the remainder of Lent, my dear sister. May the Lord guide you and illumine your path unto salvation. Pray for me.

 

[Annie]

I think that in the US at least, Catholics are more aware of the universal nature of the Church. What do those who are disheartening you think “Go out and teach all nations” means? At all the parishes I have been to, I have seen people of all different kinds be accepted by most if not all the others.

I agree with porthos that the most important aspect is Truth. If you truly believe that Orthodoxy is true, then of course you would want to stay there, especially since there are people problems wherever you go and they are not a reason to leave, imo.

ETA: The Catholic Church also has its problems!

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

That’s the thing though- social distancing is my regular life anyway. I’ve never been super involved in the social aspect of parish life. At one point we were going to ALL of the services, were in choir, and did it for years, but it ended. Going for Jesus is one thing- but it is difficult to not be resentful of everything else going on. I became Orthodox because it was the first time I ever discerned the presence of God. We had been visiting, came late, communion was already going on, and it hit me strongly.

I have been considering Catholicism for numerous reasons- this is just the straw breaking the camel’s back- as it were. I started praying the rosary two years ago and it was a game changer. Then I felt a huge call to go to Eucharistic Adoration and I feel the same presence of God there every single time I’ve ever gone. Then I read Soloviev. Then I questioned the idea of the papacy. Then I found out about how the Patriarch of Antioch came into communion with Rome back in the 1700s (Melkites)- but the Patriarch of Constantinople didn’t like it and elected a new Patriarch of Antioch. The Filioque was never an issue for me. I’m also not a huge fan of how easy and prevalent divorce is in Orthodoxy (at least in my parish it is).

I guess- more than anything- I’m looking for a reason to stay Orthodox. I know Catholic parishes are not going to be these perfect places. I can already see how many just leave after mass and have no interactions with anyone else. I love the divine liturgy. Orthodoxy has been a huge part of my life for so long and I want it to work out. However- I just feel like at every turn I’m finding more reasons to not stay Orthodox and this is difficult.

ETA: Of course- I’ll pray for you too!

 

[catholiclala]

By its nature and very name Catholicism is universal, but each parish has it’s own culture even if not tied to ethnicity. I will say when I was on my way back to Christianity I considered the Orthodox church but a huge turnoff is the associations of each church to an ethnic identity. I’m a young black woman and seeing diversity was important to me. I studied more and found Catholicism to be true for me, in part due to the universality. But I also found a parish that fit my approach to the faith and had the right culture for me.

 

[fhansen]

It’s sort of a human thing, not the best side of us. But culture and exclusivity in general can play their parts in Catholicism too. And sometimes we might actually refer to someone as a “cultural-Catholic”, a term that sort of implicitly questions whether the person is truly a believer, or just born into the faith without ever having really sought or tested it on their own. It would be ironic, but also human, for such a person to question the faith of an “outsider” who might just have a stronger and truer faith. Converts and “reverts” are often the most knowledgeable and zealous Church members. Either way I don’t witness a great deal of ostracizing in Catholicism, however, less and less as time goes on, if anything.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

CoffeeFanatic:

What I’m really asking is if Eastern Catholicism is also like this?

In some Churches. I have a friend that is Ukrainian Catholic living in the Chicago area and he is also a PK (priest kid). He has been outed from his parish for wanting more English in the Divine Liturgy.

WOW. That’s really sad. Did his family try to help him?

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I became Orthodox because it was the first time I ever discerned the presence of God.

Same here. I walked into a very traditional Orthodox Church where the iconographer was working on his scaffold, made a genuflection in front of the solea and immediately was overwhelmed by the Presence of God Who dwelt in that place…but with that sense of Holiness was the sense of my complete unworthiness to be in His Presence…so I ran out of the Church…and spent two and a half years reading, praying and suffering through the Great Schism…in the end I became Orthodox and it has been an extremely harrowing experience…now I mostly feel the absence of God…and am seeing all the warts and birthmarks of contemporary Orthodoxy…which could simply be another temptation…to leave after the so-called honeymoon phase is over…when the nitty gritty of suffering with the one you have married burdens your soul…or it could be I am called to Catholicism…many prayers over this…

I started praying the rosary two years ago and it was a game changer.

I have such a strong desire to pray the rosary, but being a little timid, I have started praying a simplified version as a first dipping my toe in the water. Also, I have included praying to certain Catholic saints alongside Orthodox in evening prayers.

I guess- more than anything- I’m looking for a reason to stay Orthodox.

Amen to that, sister.

Of course- I’ll pray for you too!

Thank you! Prayers all around.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

a genuflection

I didn’t think Orthodox genuflected. In our UGCC parish, we have 2-3 RCs who attend our parish and they genuflect. Otherwise, everyone makes the sign of the cross and bows.

 

[ziapueblo]

Unfortunately his father passed away and so he’s been having to deal with it on his own. Unfortunately, as our Lord taught us, there are goats among us.

ZP

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I didn’t think Orthodox genuflected.

This was when I was pre-Orthodox, and still in the Anglican Church in North America…

 

[po18guy]

So sorry to hear this. But, since you are well aware that you are infinitely loved, and have the same human dignity as any of the Saints, consider the source of criticism.

What you are facing is broken human nature. Neo-Pharisees, if you will, focused on the externals and seeking no change of heart. It is a violation of the greatest of the Christian virtues: Charity.

Will you see this in Catholicism? Yes. It is taught against, we are exhorted to oppose it - first in ourselves or when experienced from others, but it is simple broken humanity.

The hypocrisy is certainly difficult to bear, but what they are unknowingly telling you is that they are badly in need of prayer. In truth, praying for someone who has greatly wronged you is the perfect start to forgiveness from the heart.

Secondly, if you are being lead toward the “Universal” Church, consider focusing on docility to the Holy Spirit. He never leads astray.