Eradication of Violence in Muslims – A Peaceful Approach

[WestonGrant]

This banned person isn’t someone who speaks for Islam. I mean, come on. There are a billion Muslims and this is just one. We can’t get so mad at people like this that we forget what the Church says about Muslims. At Vatican II the Church said some things we need to remember about them. They have a **lot **on common with us.

And when we look at the world and the culture, they are fighting alot of the same things we’re fighting.

 

[WestonGrant]

I’m talking about AhmadAssan being banned of course.

 

[Verisimilitude]

This banned person isn’t someone who speaks for Islam. I mean, come on. There are a billion Muslims and this is just one. We can’t get so mad at people like this that we forget what the Church says about Muslims. At Vatican II the Church said some things we need to remember about them. They have a **lot **on common with us.

And when we look at the world and the culture, they are fighting alot of the same things we’re fighting.

Can you describe some of the things Catholics and Mohammedans are in agreement about?

 

[WestonGrant]

Okay.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creater, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

(Lumen Gentium 16)

"The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his virign Mother they also honor and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting. "

(Nostra Aetate 3)

You can add abortion, pornography, homosexuality, consumerism and a whole list of others to what we are both fighting.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Okay.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creater, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

(Lumen Gentium 16)

"The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his virign Mother they also honor and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting. "

(Nostra Aetate 3)

That is a qualified agreement to the one God.

You can add abortion, pornography, homosexuality, consumerism and a whole list of others to what we are both fighting.

Are you sure?
Abortion
Islam does not permit homosexuality outright, but seems OK with sex changes.
Pornography may have similar doctrinal prohibitions, but the punishment is a bit different.

Consumerism needs a better definition to be examined.

I see your point, but the surface similarities are overshadowed by the actual differences. There is very little the two faiths can be in unanimous on.

 

[Etisoppa]

May I offer this as central to your quest. It is quite simple and beautiful. It is surah 2, 256 : “There is no compulsion in religion”

When really thought about, it cover so much.

 

[BelFarfalla]

May I offer this as central to your quest. It is quite simple and beautiful. It is surah 2, 256 : “There is no compulsion in religion”

When really thought about, it cover so much.

Then why do Muslims execute apostates?

 

[Etisoppa]

Because that surah has never been central to Islam.We (they need to fashion) an islam that revolves around that surah.
That is consistient with that surah.

There are even Fundamental Christians, and others who should take a leaf from that surah as to how they view what they seek to do with their religions.

 

[WestonGrant]

Verisimilitude,

Maybe it is about whether you see the glass half empty or half full.

Islam doesn’t have a central authority like our Pope, so it’s not as consistent as Catholic teaching.

newsbatch.com/abort.htm

religiousconsultation.org/family_planning_in_Islam_by_Shaikh_p1.htm

But on abortion, you don’t see much in the way of it in the Muslim world. They are having children not killing them. Catholics are supposed to be against it but they kill them as much as non-Catholics. So in practice, you might say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics.

guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/04/6/gr040604.html

Of course they don’t understand the Trinity. But LG says they adore the one God with us. But that’s a lot, still compared to say Hindus, Wiccans or even Mormons.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi adds further to his argument:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/intro.html
“Such beliefs, in short, have very much demoralised these Maulvies: they are incapable of teaching people decency and peace. On the other hand, killing others without rhyme or reason is with them a great religious duty. I would be glad if any sect of the Ahl-i-Hadith is opposed to these beliefs, but I cannot help observing with regret that among the sects of the Ahl-i-Hadith1 there are those who in secret believe in a bloody Mahdi and in the popular notions of Jihad. They are opposed to correct notions, and they think it an act of great merit to kill when they have the opportunity to kill all the people professing other faiths, whereas the beliefs in killing others in the name of Islam, or believing in prophecies like the prophecy of a Bloody Messiah and wishing to advance the cause of Islam by bloodshed or by threats, are absolutely against the Holy Quran and the reliable Hadith. Our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him) suffered great persecution at the hands of the Kafirs at Mecca and thereafter. The thirteen years which he spent at Mecca were years of great affliction and suffering of many kinds - a thought of them brings tears to one’s eyes. But he did not raise the sword against his enemies, nor did he reply to their abuse, until many of his Companions and dear friends were mercilessly murdered; and until he himself was subjected to sufferings of various kinds, such as being poisoned many a time; and until many an unsuccessful plan to murder him had been laid. When, however, God’s vengeance came, it so happened that the elders of Mecca and the chiefs of the tribes unanimously decided that this man should in any case be put to death. At that time, God, who is the Supporter of His loved ones and of the truthful and righteous, informed him that there was now nothing left in that town except evil, that the townspeople were bent upon murdering him and that he should therefore quit it at once. Then it was that, in accordance with the divine command, he migrated to Medina, but even then his enemies did not leave him alone; they pursued him there, and tried to destroy Islam in all possible ways. When their excesses went to an extreme, and when they had rendered themselves deserving of punishment by the murder of many an innocent person, permission to fight with them in self-defence, to fight with a view to warding off their attack, was given. And those people and their helpers had rendered themselves deserving of such treatment because of their having killed many an innocent person whom they had murdered not in any fight or battle but simply out of wanton mischief and whom they had robbed of their property. But, in spite of all this, when Mecca was taken our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him) pardoned them all. It is, therefore, utterly wrong and unjust to suppose that the Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him) or his Companions ever fought for spreading the Faith, or that they ever coerced anyone to join the fold of Islam.”
Unquote
Thanks

 

[Verisimilitude]

So in practice, you might say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics.

No. I would not say that.

It is not a matter of being a pessimist or optimist with regard to Mohammedan dogma or doctrine. If it were, I would promote paarsurrey’s version of Islam as a reasonable alternative for Mohammedans. If anything, I will promote my faith.

I wish paarsurrey all the luck in the world in his efforts to convince the majority of the 1.2+ billion Muslims to at least adhear to his ideology rather than either the Sunni or Shia view- but that won’t likley happen in my lifetime.

I reject anything and everything Mohammedan. There is nothing that man has done or said that I find agreeable to my faith; everything is qualified, and every sect of Islam I know of, or of any significant number, honors Mohammad with human characteristics and qualities equal to or above Jesus Christ. Mohammad said he is most like Christ, in this world and the next.

I find that offensive. I also find offensive Mohammedan smugness that tries to convince me that Muslims too honor Jesus as a respected prophet while denying per the Qur’an, everything in the Gospels. I find offensive Islams portrayal of all legitiamte prophets by putting new words in their mouths, and denying everything the OT about them as they do with Christ. I sooth that offense by trying my best to correct the misunderstandings Mohammedans have about the Church without undue anger, because God limited my defenseive authority. My swords are not made of steel.

What I find most offensive are the Western freedoms Mohammedans use where they can to legally espouse their opinion and rights, but in Muslim countries this conversation is not even possible without fear of reprisal. That is high hypocracy. When Christians/other non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, or Syria, and Iran, Egypt…can speak as openly there, as Muslims can speak in the West they will have earned the right to say Islam gives equal rights to all faiths and there is no compulsion in religion. Not before.

I do not say these things lightly. I know many Muslims want to live a peaceful life for themselves and their children, and many are good and honorable people. But Islam is not like other faiths, just as Catholicism is not just any faith. Islam, like Mormons and JW, and other Christo-centric faiths have completley re-written the nature and purpose of Christs ministry.

The difference; Mormons & JW do not have “holy” words that deny Christ like Islam does, but most importantly in today’s world, they do not have directions from God to kill or subjugate unbelievers like Islam does.

Why is there no large, unified Mohammedan outcry at terrorists and other brutal activity done in the name of Allah? Not because they do not have a central authority like Catholicism, but because even the peaceful, honorable Muslims cannot deny the “neccessary” violence in Allah’s Cause.

Jihad (holy fighting in Allahs Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

What is allahs Cause? What is Christ’s Cause? Read the histories about both and tell me what conclusion you draw about how much they have in common. Read what one says about the other.

And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)

And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so (i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah - chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world to make victorious Allahs Religion of Islamic Monotheism), there will be fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #73)

I conclude both the Church and the Umma have each done as mandated by their respective scripture. Neither perfectly, but striving to do so.

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

 

[WestonGrant]

Verisimilitude,

I was talking about abortion when I said that Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics in real life.

What did Jesus said about the two sons in Matthew 21:28? It was the son who did what he was supposed to do that was good, not the one who said he would and knew he should, but didn’t. I don’ think you can argue that on some pretty big moral questions the Muslims are by and large doing what God wants and the Catholics by and large aren’t.

And what about what St. Paul said about those who don’t have the law but do what is inscribed on their hearts? (Rom 2:13-16)

“For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works though Christ Jesus.”

How is it that we Catholics who’ve got the sacraments and all the truth are giving such a lousy return on investment to God and the Muslims who don’t have all the gifts are doing so much better in real life on some important things?

That bothers me. We should be ashamed.

So, I mean, come on. Be just a little more fair. I know they have serious problems and errors. But I think you’re making the bad as bad as it can be and not being fair about the good.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Verisimilitude,

I was talking about abortion when I said that Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics in real life.

No, you said they have **a lot **in common with us. I disagree. They have a few similar surface qualities that deviate sharply once examined.

What did Jesus said about the two sons in Matthew 21:28? It was the son who did what he was supposed to do that was good, not the one who said he would and knew he should, but didn’t. I don’ think you can argue that on some pretty big moral questions the Muslims are by and large doing what God wants and the Catholics by and large aren’t.

I think I can argue that if you would like.

And what about what St. Paul said about those who don’t have the law but do what is inscribed on their hearts? (Rom 2:13-16)

“For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works though Christ Jesus.”

I cannot read a mans heart like God, much less that of a billion people. I can read the actions of a group, and as a group Mohammedans fall short with respect to the Law.

How is it that we Catholics who’ve got the sacraments and all the truth are giving such a lousy return on investment to God and the Muslims who don’t have all the gifts are doing so much better in real life on some important things?

Wow. Define the lousy return by Catholics and the much better important things by Mohammedans.

That bothers me. We should be ashamed.

What are you ashamed of by being a Catholic?

So, I mean, come on. Be just a little more fair. I know they have serious problems and errors. But I think you’re making the bad as bad as it can be and not being fair about the good.

I am being honest and fair. -

 

[Booklover]

May I offer this as central to your quest. It is quite simple and beautiful. It is surah 2, 256 : “There is no compulsion in religion”

When really thought about, it cover so much.

Yeah, it’s a wonderful thought, but unfortunately Muslims don’t allow others to do that! According to Mo the false prophet, Allah will not accept any other religion but Islam! So go figure!

Vickie

 

[WestonGrant]

I was talking about abortion when I said that Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics in real life.

No, you said they have **a lot **in common with us. -

This is what I said,

But on abortion, you don’t see much in the way of it in the Muslim world. They are having children not killing them. Catholics are supposed to be against it but they kill them as much as non-Catholics. So in practice, you might say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics.

I was talking about abortion there. I talked about having a lot in common with them, too, but that wasn’t what I was saying there. They’re different points.

And theres a difference between Muslims and Islam. Catholics and Catholicism. Islam has serious errors. I’m not arguing about that. But it looks to me as though the average Muslim is by and large trying harder to please God than the average Catholic. That has to mean something. We’ve got everything (Sacraments, Magisterium). They don’t. That’s the lousy return on investment I’m talking about. I’m not saying that the best Muslims are doing better than the best Catholics. And I want Muslims to convert, believe me! I doubt they’d be lukewarm.

1. I’m ashamed that so many Catholics are out front for abortion, gay rights, pornography, putting out smut and garbage on TV, and more. And I won’t talk about other sad things everyone knows about because I don’t want to go there.

 

[Verisimilitude]

A short history:

At Vatican II the Church said some things we need to remember about them. They have a **lot **on common with us.
And when we look at the world and the culture, they are fighting alot of the same things we’re fighting.

Can you describe some of the things Catholics and Mohammedans are in agreement about?

Okay. …You can add abortion, pornography, homosexuality, consumerism and a whole list of others to what we are both fighting.

This is what I said,

I was talking about abortion there. I talked about having a lot in common with them, too, but that wasn’t what I was saying there. They’re different points.

A Catholic may choose to have an abortion for various reasons, but I know of no Catholics that says the position of the Church is wrong. They would be acting contrary to the Church…as we all do to one degree or another at one time or another.

And theres a difference between Muslims and Islam. Catholics and Catholicism. Islam has serious errors. I’m not arguing about that. But it looks to me as though the average Muslim is by and large trying harder to please God than the average Catholic.

What are those differences, and what is pleasing to God?

The ‘Five Pillars’ of Islam are the foundation of Muslim life:
Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
(Their view of Oneness denies Christ outright, and elevates Mohammad in stature above Christ.)
Establishment of the daily prayers;
(Do you know what they consist of, and are based upon? It is not a matter of, if God deserves such devotion, but rather is the devotion in accordance with God? )
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
(It is unclear that this is with respect to all people regardless of faith. Many verses and hadith suggest it is only for other Muslims.)
**Self-purification through fasting; and **
(Many Catholics practice this at Lent just as Mohammedans at Rammadan)
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.
(The Mecca claim to Abraham is false)

That has to mean something.

It is miguided.

We’ve got everything (Sacraments, Magisterium). They don’t. That’s the lousy return on investment I’m talking about. I’m not saying that the best Muslims are doing better than the best Catholics. And I want Muslims to convert, believe me! I doubt they’d be lukewarm.

They too have the Truth, but chose not to accept it, instead they accept Mohammad’s truth.

1. I’m ashamed that so many Catholics are out front for abortion, gay rights, pornography, putting out smut and garbage on TV, and more. And I won’t talk about other sad things everyone knows about because I don’t want to go there.

Many Christians are out for those things. Not so many Catholics. It is why I distinguish myself from those terms.

 

[WestonGrant]

Veri,

You criticized when I said that Muslims could be said to be better Catholics than Catholics. And if you look back, that one point I made was about abortion. Not everything. Yes, I said we have a lot in common, and abortion was only one of the things I mentioned. But there’s only one thing I said you could say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholic on and that’s abortion.

If you don’t know Catholics that think the Church is wrong on abortion you can’t read very much. Try Edward Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Rudy Giuliani, Tom Daschle to start.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Veri,

You criticized when I said that Muslims could be said to be better Catholics than Catholics. And if you look back, that one point I made was about abortion. Not everything. Yes, I said we have a lot in common, and abortion was only one of the things I mentioned. But there’s only one thing I said you could say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholic on and that’s abortion.

If you don’t know Catholics that think the Church is wrong on abortion you can’t read very much. Try Edward Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Rudy Giuliani, Tom Daschle to start.

So you judge all Catholics by some who are well known.

I’ve read plently about Islam allowing abortion. Last time I saw stats on it, there are over 80,000 abortions in Iran alone a year.

 

[WestonGrant]

So you judge all Catholics by some who are well known…

No I don’t. Veri said he didn’t know of any Catholics who said the Church is wrong on abortion. I showed him some big names. They’re the tip of the iceberg. There are a LOT like them, like Catholics for Free Choice. Last I checked there aren’t many Catholics that are totally on board with the Church’s teaching on abortion.

I’ve read plently about Islam allowing abortion. Last time I saw stats on it, there are over 80,000 abortions in Iran alone a year.

Show the figures then.

religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm

These figures show that Catholics are more likely than the average American to have an abortion. And there were 1.4 million of them here in the U.S.

We should be ashamed.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Veri,

You criticized …only one thing I said you could say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholic on and that’s abortion.

Let’s not bicker on a single point that is not wholly relavent or representative to the issue. If I am able, I will give no quarter to Mohammedan ideology. It lowers what cannot be made low to be it’s superior.

The peaceful Muslims will be known by being peaceful. Since they do not separate nationality or state from the faith to a large degree it is difficult to differentiate between the many sects.

If you don’t know Catholics that think the Church is wrong on abortion you can’t read very much. Try Edward Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Rudy Giuliani, Tom Daschle to start.

These are not stalwarts of the faith to be admired for their faith, imo. It is shamefull to a large degree; the positions they take on many issues to include abortion.