Erasing Christianity from college

[Student09]

My college is a secular college but has old ties to Eastern Orthodoxy in particular, and also to Catholicism. These ties have mostly dissolved and now there are just a few elderly professors who are devout Christians (I had one last year who had a great impact on me) and most of the professors, as well as students, are openly hostile to Christianity. They mock Jesus both in and out of classes all the time. One professor (in a class where we were discussing the Bible) told us we were no longer allowed to use the terms “Old/New Testament” because it was offensive to Jews. We were supposed to say “Hebrew Scriptures” and “Christian Scriptures.” As if the OT belongs solely to the Jews and the NT to Christians, rather than both being extremely important parts of Christian scripture and heritage.

Despite all of this, there was (until today) an icon corner in the bookstore, with a very beautiful wooden crucifix and some large Eastern-style icons. On days when I felt confused or rootless, I liked to go to the bookstore and look at the crucifix. So today was a very difficult day and I went to the bookstore and … the crucifix and all the icons had been removed. Completely gone, no trace. Instead there were random secular posters and some Buddhist things. It felt so wrong.

I guess that icon corner in the bookstore was one of the few things that helped me feel like my growing devotion to Christ was welcome at the college. Maybe it’s a small thing, but I feel like I’ve been slapped in the face. There’s no room for Jesus at my college anymore.

 

[Christy_Beth]

All of society is getting to be that way. Actually, when the items were removed, did you ask about them?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Well, personally, I see that as a good thing. If I ever become the Religious Studies professor I aim to be, I would also teach in a secular manner. It’s only fair because there are non-Christians who take those classes for the sake of knowledge.

I would only hope to take a class that won’t bash the Bible nor would they teach it as truth. Through my eyes, the Bible is a literary work and nothing more.

Don’t be so discouraged. It’s good to see any religion in a secular way to get a new perspective on it. It just makes that religion stand out even more; you understand it in different ways. :yup:

Sorry, if I rambled, but as far as the icon goes, you don’t need a material object to have the… uh… love you feel for your faith or to get the motivation you need to get through the day.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Chiltepin]

Well, personally, I see that as a good thing. If I ever become the Religious Studies professor I aim to be, I would also teach in a secular manner. It’s only fair because there are non-Christians who take those classes for the sake of knowledge.
…
Don’t be so discouraged. It’s good to see any religion in a secular way to get a new perspective on it. It just makes that religion stand out even more; you understand it in different ways. :yup:

Sorry, if I rambled, but as far as the icon goes, you don’t need a material object to have the… uh… love you feel for your faith or to get the motivation you need to get through the day.

I know you mean well, but this is not a good thing for us. Why would a Catholic see the teaching of their faith in a way that relegates it to mere mythology as a good thing?

I don’t think that you have to teach a class about Christianity as overly secular to “be fair” to the non-Christians in the class. That is ludicrous. If they want to learn about it let them also learn what it is that Catholics or Orthodox or whomever believe rather than teaching it all as myth or mere literature.

As to the last part about the icon, sometimes we do need that. I would think that someone who studies religion even in a secular way would understand the function of religious art and icons in strengthening a person.

With all respect to you and your studies, I would much rather learn about a religion other than my own from an actual religious leader or someone who practices that religion, not from a religious studies professor who is “Hardcore Agnostic.” I don’t mean that as an insult. Religion is fascinating and I understand the desire to study them all. I am just trying to explain why some of us may be less enthusiastic about your approach. It is good that you would take care not to tear down the religion you are offering a course in.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I know you mean well, but this is not a good thing for us. Why would a Catholic see the teaching of their faith in a way that relegates it to mere mythology as a good thing?

I don’t think that you have to teach a class about Christianity as overly secular to “be fair” to the non-Christians in the class. That is ludicrous. If they want to learn about it let them also learn what it is that Catholics or Orthodox or whomever believe rather than teaching it all as myth or mere literature.

As to the last part about the icon, sometimes we do need that. I would think that someone who studies religion even in a secular way would understand the function of religious art and icons in strengthening a person.

With all respect to you and your studies, I would much rather learn about a religion other than my own from an actual religious leader or someone who practices that religion, not from a religious studies professor who is “Hardcore Agnostic.” I don’t mean that as an insult. Religion is fascinating and I understand the desire to study them all. I am just trying to explain why some of us may be less enthusiastic about your approach. It is good that you would take care not to tear down the religion you are offering a course in.

To see your own religion through secular eyes, is to see it in a new light. Religious studies is like Ethnic studies. It’s a part of culture, and in saying that, it doesn’t deserve the amount of bias as it gets. Not only that, but since it’s culture, you’re going to get more than just myth and literature; you’re also going to get practices, rituals, beliefs, history, and a lot more.

I understand that some don’t really have “that leg to stand on” when they’re down, but that doesn’t mean you need to rely on it. People can learn how to cope with everyday life and its burdens individually, one person at a time.

Finally, I may be “hardcore Agnostic,” but that doesn’t mean I’m totally clueless about different religions. I do my part in remembering my experiences as a Catholic; I haven’t completely forgotten. As for other religions, I would only hope to check out some of their rituals. Black Mass, here I come!

Ironically Yours.

 

[Chiltepin]

To see your own religion through secular eyes, is to see it in a new light. Religious studies is like Ethnic studies. It’s a part of culture, and in saying that, it doesn’t deserve the amount of bias as it gets. Not only that, but since it’s culture, you’re going to get more than just myth and literature; you’re also going to get practices, rituals, beliefs, history, and a lot more.
…
Finally, I may be “hardcore Agnostic,” but that doesn’t mean I’m totally clueless about different religions. I do my part in remembering my experiences as a Catholic; I haven’t completely forgotten. As for other religions, I would only hope to check out some of their rituals. Black Mass, here I come!

As a Sociology teacher, I’m aware of what culture is. That is not the real issue here.

I’m not saying you don’t know anything about religion, but I would not want to learn about a religion from someone with that view. I would rather learn about Islam from a well-educated Muslim than from a well-educated Agnostic. My heart sinks to think of a fallen away Catholic teaching others about Catholicism.

I made my first post before looking at your profile. You are very young. Good luck in your studies. It would be a great experience to attend other religious services. My advice to you is stay the Hell away from the Black Mass. Puns aside, I’m quite serious. If there is even a single Catholic cell left in your whole body you will stay away from this. You said you are agnostic rather than atheist. You acknowledge the possibility that Satan is really what we say he is, just feel it cannot be proven. Do I have that right? Why would you take the risk? Please abandon that particular harmful curiosity. The idea that you would engage in something like that is just the reason I wouldn’t want you teaching people about Catholicism, at least at this stage in your life. By the time you are all the way through grad school, you may be a rather different person.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

As a Sociology teacher, I’m aware of what culture is. That is not the real issue here.

I’m not saying you don’t know anything about religion, but I would not want to learn about a religion from someone with that view. I would rather learn about Islam from a well-educated Muslim than from a well-educated Agnostic. My heart sinks to think of a fallen away Catholic teaching others about Catholicism.

I made my first post before looking at your profile. You are very young. Good luck in your studies. It would be a great experience to attend other religious services. My advice to you is stay the Hell away from the Black Mass. Puns aside, I’m quite serious. If there is even a single Catholic cell left in your whole body you will stay away from this. You said you are agnostic rather than atheist. You acknowledge the possibility that Satan is really what we say he is, just feel it cannot be proven. Do I have that right? Why would you take the risk? Please abandon that particular harmful curiosity. The idea that you would engage in something like that is just the reason I wouldn’t want you teaching people about Catholicism, at least at this stage in your life. By the time you are all the way through grad school, you may be a rather different person.

Sociology teacher, huh? That’s cool.

…You do know that, in the Church of Satan, they don’t acknowlegde him as a real being, right? Satan’s a symbol, and the members of LaVeyan Satanism are Atheists or Agnostics.

Religion means all beliefs of as many times and places as I can possibly learn. I don’t want to “teach Catholicism.” Personally, I’d like to specialize in the Left Hand Paths and the Occult-- I want to study it, not practice it because I don’t believe in it. I feel that Judeo-Christian studies have become far too… uhh… controversial… (Ha! Talk abut ironic. )

I’d like to study faiths/religions that aren’t that touched upon as Judeo-Christianity. :yup: It’ll be interesting.

Ironically Yours.

 

[Student09]

It’s good to see any religion in a secular way to get a new perspective on it.

Well, I’m from an atheist family and am in the process of converting to Catholicism, so I have a very good idea what Christianity looks like to secular folks. If I want to hear my beliefs bashed, I can talk to my parents. Perhaps this is why it’s particularly hard to have such a hostile environment at school.

Like I said, my school has orthodox Christian roots and there is still enough of those roots left in the school that it has played a vital role in my conversion process so far. It saddens me deeply to see that being eroded.

I would rather learn about Islam from a well-educated Muslim than from a well-educated Agnostic.

I heard a lecture on Islam from a well-educated agnostic. It was horrifying. In my experience, secularism, rather than promoting respect for religious diversity, diminishes respect for all religious experience and belief.

 

[Chiltepin]

In my experience, secularism, rather than promoting respect for religious diversity, diminishes respect for all religious experience and belief.

Amen to that. What is worse, some are so deluded that they find their disrespect very respectful. Christ teaches that you may be persecuted. I’m just very sorry to hear that you as a convert are running into this trouble. God bless your journey home to the Church and I hope that you find a supportive Catholic community somewhere at that school during this transition period for you. CAF is always here when you’re feeling alone. I love this place.

…You do know that, in the Church of Satan, they don’t acknowlegde him as a real being, right? Satan’s a symbol, and the members of LaVeyan Satanism are Atheists or Agnostics.

I’m fairly certain that some people drawn to the occult do acknowledge him as a real being. LeVeyans are not the only kind out there. I did not realize that they also consider themselves atheists and agnostics. This makes me sad. I had previously considered agnostics a fairly reasonable people. LeVeyanism offers nothing good to this world. You’d be in such good company with the likes of Hitler. It justifies selfishness and self-indulgence. I do see why selfish pleasure-loving people would be drawn to it and I do see the work of Satan himself and not a symbol behind their debased behavior.

Personally, I’d like to specialize in the Left Hand Paths and the Occult

I don’t know your family background, but if you care about your family you will not do this. It can bring spiritual harm not only to you but to them as well. The fact that college classes would be offered in such a thing is why so many colleges are sending a generation to Hell in a handbasket.

I want to study it, not practice it because I don’t believe in it.

You would be attending a black mass, and you just explained yourself that theirs beliefs are non-theistic. If the black mass is performed by non-theistic satanists, then the sole purpose is to disrespect the Catholic Mass. Your being there is participation enough that I would never want you teaching anyone about religion. You claim to respect religions but you would seek to study a non-religion based around the desecration and disrespect of other religions?

I feel that Judeo-Christian studies have become far too… uhh… controversial…

Secularism has made it controversial by making Christianity one of the only things that is not acceptable to talk about in mixed company. From what I gather, this is some of the frustration the OP is experiencing.

I’d like to study faiths/religions that aren’t that touched upon as Judeo-Christianity.

Then do not study the Occult because it so clearly has ties as the antithesis of Judaism and Christianity. It is a reaction to it. Study far Eastern religions and philosophies or Native American religions or some pre-Christian religions if you want something not touched by Christianity.

 

[wolfgang]

All of society is getting to be that way. Actually, when the items were removed, did you ask about them?

Yes, did you ask about them Student09? I would have wanted to know where they went.

:angel1:

 

[Chiltepin]

You’d be in such good company with the likes of Hitler

quoting myself for clarification. Not as a LeVeyanist, but as someone fascinated by and studying the occult in general. Obviously Hitler was not a follower of LeVay, but I think my sentence order makes it sound like I was suggesting it.

 

[Student09]

Yes, did you ask about them Student09? I would have wanted to know where they went.

:angel1:

I was going to ask, but I felt so rattled that I never got the words out. Maybe I will ask today. I do want to know what happened. I think there’s a new person running the store now.

 

[wolfgang]

I was going to ask, but I felt so rattled that I never got the words out. Maybe I will ask today. I do want to know what happened. I think there’s a new person running the store now.

Thanks.

:angel1:

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I’m fairly certain that some people drawn to the occult do acknowledge him as a real being. LeVeyans are not the only kind out there. I did not realize that they also consider themselves atheists and agnostics. This makes me sad. I had previously considered agnostics a fairly reasonable people. LeVeyanism offers nothing good to this world. You’d be in such good company with the likes of Hitler. It justifies selfishness and self-indulgence. I do see why selfish pleasure-loving people would be drawn to it and I do see the work of Satan himself and not a symbol behind their debased behavior.
I don’t know your family background, but if you care about your family you will not do this. It can bring spiritual harm not only to you but to them as well. The fact that college classes would be offered in such a thing is why so many colleges are sending a generation to Hell in a handbasket.

You would be attending a black mass, and you just explained yourself that theirs beliefs are non-theistic. If the black mass is performed by non-theistic satanists, then the sole purpose is to disrespect the Catholic Mass. Your being there is participation enough that I would never want you teaching anyone about religion. You claim to respect religions but you would seek to study a non-religion based around the desecration and disrespect of other religions?

Secularism has made it controversial by making Christianity one of the only things that is not acceptable to talk about in mixed company. From what I gather, this is some of the frustration the OP is experiencing.
Then do not study the Occult because it so clearly has ties as the antithesis of Judaism and Christianity. It is a reaction to it. Study far Eastern religions and philosophies or Native American religions or some pre-Christian religions if you want something not touched by Christianity.

Heh… you forget I’m Agnostic, therefore I refuse to say that I know what’ll happen after death. Because I really don’t and, of course, I wouldn’t take anyone’s word for it… not that I wouldn’t consider the theory.

Anyways, Atheistic Satanists are pretty small in numbers. Secularism didn’t make Christianity controversial; Christianity walked into it. I honestly think it’s because of the denominations erupting left and right. [creepy]

Obviously, you didn’t notice that I was joking about Black Mass, but it would be an honor in witnessing it, just as it is an honor in being dragged to a Catholic Mass every Sunday with my family. (I come from a Catholic background.) I don’t mind attending, of course; it’s nice to spend time with my family.

 

[Chiltepin]

Obviously, you didn’t notice that I was joking about Black Mass, but it would be an honor in witnessing it, just as it is an honor in being dragged to a Catholic Mass every Sunday with my family. (I come from a Catholic background.) I don’t mind attending, of course; it’[s nice to spend time with my family.

Were you joking when you said you wanted to be a professor of religious studies specializing in the occult? Are you joking when you said just now that it would be an honor to witness a black mass? Are you joking when you set these two on equal grounds by referring to them both as an honor? I don’t think you realize what a slap in the face that is to Catholicism and likely to your family.

It is an honor to be in attendance when our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist. It is an honor we humans are entirely unworthy of. There is nothing honorable about a ritual with the sole purpose of mocking and desecrating a Catholic Mass. Is that not what a black Mass is? Correct me if I am wrong.

Does your family know that you are agnostic? Have they advised you not to recieve communion when you are “dragged” to Mass with them?
[/quote]

 

[Student09]

I don’t know how this thread turned into a conversation about the black mass.

 

[Student09]

Why would you even be interested in satan when you could put your time and energy into GOD??? God is the source of creation, of life, of all good, and He loves us. The devil is nothing.

 

[Chiltepin]

I don’t know how this thread turned into a conversation about the black mass.

My apologies for getting all riled up. I should have learned from being around them all day at work not to argue with 18 year olds. I’ll try to stop responding to it, if I have the strength not to. (I don’t know I’m pretty weak at times)

I’ve been thinking about your situation.When I was in college people would write messages in chalk from time to time or on the dry erase boards in the classrooms. They usually did it at night so they would not be caught. Well, not the dry erase boards, you usually needed permission for that. If your school seems to be taking Christianity out of the picture, you could chalk it back in!

The administration and faculty can only shape a school so much. Remember they are taking your money and providing a service to you. The student population largely outnumbers them and has great power to shape the face of the campus community!

I’m sorry that they are removing things such as the cross that gave you hope and strength in this time of your conversion. Maybe you can chalk or write or be that special hopeful something for others at your school and start something awesome!

edit: Maybe your bookstore just took it down to have it cleaned.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Were you joking when you said you wanted to be a professor of religious studies specializing in the occult? Are you joking when you said just now that it would be an honor to witness a black mass? Are you joking when you set these two on equal grounds by referring to them both as an honor? I don’t think you realize what a slap in the face that is to Catholicism and likely to your family.

It is an honor to be in attendance when our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist. It is an honor we humans are entirely unworthy of. There is nothing honorable about a ritual with the sole purpose of mocking and desecrating a Catholic Mass. Is that not what a black Mass is? Correct me if I am wrong.

Does your family know that you are agnostic? Have they advised you not to recieve communion when you are “dragged” to Mass with them?

Yes, my parents do know I’m Agnostic. They’re not too happy about it, but they’re smart enough to know that there’s little to nothing to do about it. And, yes, I do receive the Eucharist.

Black Mass is primarily to humor people like you. I’m not even kidding; the Church of Satan–more of a lifestyle than anything else–is purely designed to make you mad, and to make you more of a Christian–or, rather, to show your “true colors” as a Christians. As for what they do… uh… I’m sure it has something to do with an inverted pentagram and a nude woman. :ehh: That’s what I remember reading.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I don’t know how this thread turned into a conversation about the black mass.

Oh, I didn’t see this post. Sorry about that.

Bottom line response to the OP: Relax, don’t mind it too much (or else you’ll depress yourself), and practice and remember your faith on your own because that’ll only make you a stronger person and a stronger believer. Inspiration can come through other ideas, memories, and positive thoughts as opposed to material objects, which, at the end of the day, are closed to being worthless.

Ironically Yours.