Error Begets Error

[aidanbradypop]

You sure talk to some strange Catholics. All of her awards are a distraction? What awards?I have never in my entire life as a Catholic heard of the Church handing out awards for certain works. I have volunteered at my Church for the better part of my adult life to the point of putting iin 20-30 hours a week at times and I’m lucky if I can get a thank you. If your Catholic friend has a problem with pride getting in the way of her relationship with God that is a personal issue, not a Catholic issue.

As far as anything to do with the IRS the Church simply documents what you have given for use in figuring your taxes. Many people just throw in cash and never receive anything from the Church. You are completley mischaracterizing the entire thing.

I know many “Catholics” who give false information about the Church. Usually when you question, you discover the motives behind the claims. A Lutheran friend of mine had that same issue. He is friends with a former Catholic who takes every chance she gets to give false information about the Church. I questioned about her situation and he stated she was in a same sex relationship and left the Church because “they tried to tell her who she could and could not love.”

If she won awards ( ) she should be humble and return them if they cause her that much sorrow lol

 

[SteveVH]

SOLA SCRIPTURA
The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine.
lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=388
Dr. A.L.Barry President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
posted by Paul T. McCain 1/10/2002
lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1081
What About the Bible?
Why is the Bible so important?
Our Lord Jesus said,“If you remain in my Word,truly you are my disciples”(John 8:31).The divine authority and reliability of the Bible does not rest on the persons God used to write the Bible, nor on the endorsement of the Bible by the church,but rests entirely on the fact that it is the Word of the Lord.How do we know this? This confession of the Bible’s
complete authority is part of the certainty of the faith God gives to us as a gift.

Real human beings were given real words from God to write down.As our Lord Jesus Christ was both true God and true man, so the Bible is truly the Word of God and also the writing of human beings. Even as our Lord Jesus took on human flesh free from sin and error, so God used human beings to provide a written revelation of Himself that is free from error.Thus,we believe that the Bible is both incapable of error (infallible) and free from error (inerrant).

The Bible has a very important distinction one needs to keep in mind in order to understand the Bible correctly: the difference between Law and Gospel.The Bible reveals God’s perfect holiness and righteousness, and His expectation of perfection. His Law, summarized best in the Ten Commandments,reveals our sinful rebellion and our inability
to save ourselves.The Gospel is the joyful news that our Lord Jesus Christ has given us complete forgiveness from our sins through His life,death and resurrection for us.The proper distinction between Law and Gospel is the key to understanding the Bible correctly.

2 Timothy 3 All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Ephesians 2 One in Christ
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

John 10 I and the Father Are One
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

How does this even remotely answer the questions that were asked of you? Copying and pasting your pre-prepared apologetic snippets doesn’t make for meaningful dialogue.

 

[aidanbradypop]

How does this even remotely answer the questions that were asked of you? Copying and pasting your pre-prepared apologetic snippets doesn’t make for meaningful dialogue.

It doesn’t

 

[SteveVH]

I know many “Catholics” who give false information about the Church. Usually when you question, you discover the motives behind the claims. A Lutheran friend of mine had that same issue. He is friends with a former Catholic who takes every chance she gets to give false information about the Church. I questioned about her situation and he stated she was in a same sex relationship and left the Church because “they tried to tell her who she could and could not love.”

If she won awards ( ) she should be humble and return them if they cause her that much sorrow lol

Yeah, this is nothing but just plain ridiculous.

 

[JHow]

The comments about forms 1040, W2 and charitable contributions display a woeful ignorance about both the Church and the IRS.

 

[benjohnson]

So it is not so much that we believe there should be one communion; I think it is plain enough that we profess in the Creed our belief that there is, in reality, only one communion (singular).

I certainly agree! But… here’s my problem, I really don’t want to bicker about who is or is not in that church because I don’t want to cause doubt. I’d rather be content with what my church teaches and not use that teaching to come between my other brothers in christ and their good and holy church.

At some point, however, some persons began to doubt and disbelieve that the Holy Spirit really was reminding, guiding and guarding the Church always down and through all centuries - certainly, at least, in maintaining whole and entire everything that was necessary and important.

We would tend to say that for all our faults, the Holy Sprit has guided us and continues to guide us. And we certainly don’t deny (in fact it brings us joy) to see the Holy Spirit guide your church especially on such and amazing day as today.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We would tend to say that for all our faults, the Holy Sprit has guided us and continues to guide us. And we certainly don’t deny (in fact it brings us joy) to see the Holy Spirit guide your church especially on such and amazing day as today.

So BEN…lol…Today I was sitting there thinking after I completed my midday Liturgy of Hours about this thread and the title. Error Begets Error I noticed that the error of my Lutheran friends in their explaining the LCMS to me, allowed me to form a negative opinion of the LCMS. So I took it upon myself to email a poor pastor at a local LCMS parish and apologized to him for the things I have said in public about the LCMS. I asked his forgiveness and he so kindly gave it. Im sure he was thinking I escaped for the crazy house, but I just felt the need to say it.

 

[benjohnson]

So I took it upon myself to email a poor pastor at a local LCMS parish and apologized to him for the things I have said in public about the LCMS. I asked his forgiveness and he so kindly gave it. Im sure he was thinking I escaped for the crazy house, but I just felt the need to say it.

That was really kind of you! You made his day, and I’m 100% certain that he’ll tell his partitioners about the kind Catholic man took time out of one the most joyous days to be a Catholic and reach out to our little church.

Der Herr segne dich und behüte dich!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[joe370]

We contend that’s exactly what happened, we’re still in the church, just not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

For us - our small churches preach the gospel and they are where we receive the sacraments.

That’s not to say that we don’t desire reconciliation, but truthfully I don’t think of myself as an outsider longing to join the larger church. Not at least while God is giving me a bear-hug with his grace.

I respect that perspective. However, that did not answer the question:

In light of such abuses (that were eventually removed) do you think Martin Luther would have been better off trusting in Jesus, in terms of fixing the egregious problem within Jesus’ church, or doing as he did, and in the process spearheading the sola scritpura movement?

 

[joe370]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth**. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! **I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

 

[benjohnson]

I respect that perspective. However, that did not answer the question:

In light of such abuses (that were eventually removed) do you think Martin Luther would have been better off trusting in Jesus, in terms of fixing the egregious problem within Jesus’ church, or doing as he did, and in the process spearheading the sola scritpura movement?

Whew… that’s a hard question to answer, because it presupposes that the Catholic church would have quickly repaired itself without Luther and other Catholic reformers who joined him.

If we could some how softened the heart of both Leo X and Martin Luther, and avoided all the strife, I would be quite joyfully happy.

Now you’re probably (or I hope you’re asking) now that the reforms are in place, why don’t Lutherans ‘come home’. Of course, from our stand point we are ‘at home.’ And there’s been developments of dogma that we don’t agree with - the dogma about the BVM is good and noble, but the Papal Infallibility would probably be too far for not only us, but for the Orthodox.

Fooey!

Where does this leave us now? I would say we have a duty to help each others chuch, especially here in America where the secular world is doing it’s best to extinguish both our candles.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Daniel…you have yet to answer my question. You may have missed it so I will post it again.

What error do you find in the Catholic Church?
If we knew where you found error instead of a lot of word play and 100 verses then it would make it easier to have dialog!

Daniel doesn’t answer questions, he goes and copies and pastes like a mad man about something irrelevant to the questions…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

Ben before Jon!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben before Jon!

Lol

 

[hn160]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

I don’t think that the LC-MS Lutherans at this site are anti-Catholic, we just point out our differences in doctrine. As far as trying to convert Catholics to Lutheranism or vice-versa, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. I have a lot of respect for Catholics that stand up for their doctrine.

 

[joe370]

benjohnson;10482523]Whew… that’s a hard question to answer, because it presupposes that the Catholic church would have quickly repaired itself without Luther and other Catholic reformers who joined him.

True. However, if the CC is Jesus’ church then it seems reasonable that the gates of hell will never prevail? That was not an isolated moment of corruption within Jesus’ church. There has been corruption to contend with since the time of Judas. Of course it’s real easy for me to Monday-morning quarterback, in terms of what I would do if I had been in Martin Luther’s position. LOL…

If we could some how softened the heart of both Leo X and Martin Luther, and avoided all the strife, I would be quite joyfully happy.

Perhaps Gods will, in terms of preserving and infallibly transmitting doctrinal truth via His church should have nothing to do with the softening of the will of those two men. Your thoughts? Simply trust God and His church and take the bad (temporary things such as the indulgence abuses) with the good, knowing with certainty, that Jesus will win in terms of preserving the very truths He died for so that all generations could have access to them. Well, that’s what I decided long ago. For example, I can say with confidence that the devil will never destroy the Eucharist; although the devil is relentless in his effort; just look at the devils vicious attacks on Jesus’ priesthood.

Now you’re probably (or I hope you’re asking) now that the reforms are in place, why don’t Lutherans ‘come home’. Of course, from our stand point we are ‘at home.’ And there’s been developments of dogma that we don’t agree with - the dogma about the BVM is good and noble, but the Papal Infallibility would probably be too far for not only us, but for the Orthodox.

Nah… One thing you and I can agree on: not one pope was ever an infallible man, just as Peter was not, and just as no person, past, present or future is an infallible person? We are all broken in some way and will remain that way until we are perfectly conformed to God’s will in eternity.

I have quite a few historical quotes, from both the east and west, that bolsters the notion that God is the only one that infallibly guides the fallible successors of Peter, when they work together with the fallible members of the ecumenical council to render an infallible decision e.g. the IC. That would certainly explain why Jesus said what He said in Matthew 16. Something seriously going on with that succession of popes, in terms of the devil and cohort, never vanquishing Jesus’ church, in my humble opinion.

Where does this leave us now? I would say we have a duty to help each others chuch, especially here in America where the secular world is doing it’s best to extinguish both our candles.

Amen and God bless my brother in Christ.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t think that the LC-MS Lutherans at this site are anti-Catholic, we just point out our differences in doctrine. As far as trying to convert Catholics to Lutheranism or vice-versa, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. I have a lot of respect for Catholics that stand up for their doctrine.

You said it right there. We are merely tools in the spreading of the Gospel

 

[JonNC]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

Ouch!

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ouch!

Jon

What is ouch about it? Lol

 

[JonNC]

I don’t think that the LC-MS Lutherans at this site are anti-Catholic, we just point out our differences in doctrine. As far as trying to convert Catholics to Lutheranism or vice-versa, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. I have a lot of respect for Catholics that stand up for their doctrine.

hn,
I think by “here” he means where he lives, not here at CAF. He’s mentioned in the past that there are LCMC Lutherans who are rather critical of the LCMS.

Jon