Error Begets Error

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We have no problems with saying the Catholic church has been guided by the Holy Ghost. In fact, we pray that it is so - Your church was in our intentions this last week as we prayed for discernment for your archbishops during the upcoming conclave even dispite our reservations.

Where we balk, is that we don’t think it a unique charism. God has been good to our church and we are in awe of the Grace he has shown us, we repsond as best we can.
Well, its the Cardinals that are gathering and praying with the Holy Spirit for discernment. But I am sure you said archbishops because you meant well.
We pray that we all may be ONE, as Jesus wants us to be. 🙂
Have to go pray now.
 
👍

You walked right into that one, Ben. lol
She is good! 🙂

But the trap laid out for me is a good one that I’m happy to walk into for there’s nothing ‘un-Lutheran’ in being so ever grateful for those that have worked so hard that have come before us and who sacrificed much to be so steadfast in their faith.

Here’s the really really annoying thing about us Lutherans - we don’t think of the ECF and the Apostles as being somehow not-Lutheran or ourselves as not-catholic - so pointing out all the amazing things your church has been a part of gives us joy and hope. That you continue to do these good things is an answer to our prayers that “God guide and protect the church.”
 
Well, its the Cardinals that are gathering and praying with the Holy Spirit for discernment. But I am sure you said archbishops because you meant well.
We pray that we all may be ONE, as Jesus wants us to be. 🙂
Have to go pray now.
Mea culpa! I assure you the prayers were likely correct, and my memory faulty. Our pastor spent a lot of time with the Dominicans and even took classes from them in seminary.
 
She is good! 🙂

But the trap laid out for me is a good one that I’m happy to walk into for there’s nothing ‘un-Lutheran’ in being so ever grateful for those that have worked so hard that have come before us and who sacrificed much to be so steadfast in their faith.
Oh, no, no, no! I was hoping you wouldn’t read that as you were set up!

I am simply saying that which you already know: men can indeed be infallible.
 
She is good! 🙂

But the trap laid out for me is a good one that I’m happy to walk into for there’s nothing ‘un-Lutheran’ in being so ever grateful for those that have worked so hard that have come before us and who sacrificed much to be so steadfast in their faith.

Here’s the really really annoying thing about us Lutherans - we don’t think of the ECF and the Apostles as being somehow not-Lutheran or ourselves as not-catholic - so pointing out all the amazing things your church has been a part of gives us joy and hope. That you continue to do these good things is an answer to our prayers that “God guide and protect the church.”
It wasn’t a trap, my bad. :grouphug:
 
Oh, no, no, no! I was hoping you wouldn’t read that as you were set up!

I am simply saying that which you already know: men can indeed be infallible.
In your dialog, you always seem to be thinking several ‘moves’ ahead - this is a good thing and I enjoy it! Your charity combined with keen insight builds faith not only for your fellow Catholics but for this Lutheran.
 
God chose Peter as the leader (the rock) and gave him helpers.

The Pope, Peter’s successor, is not alone. He has thousands upon thousands of helpers.

The type of logic and argument you presented is flawed. Yes they served together but one was the leader.

Why do I hear Highlander in the distance… There can only be one 😃
Which Pope, the one at: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, Avignon, Alexandria…? Perhaps the multitude of popes were Peter’s helpers? But I’d much rather see Christ Jesus get the credit, as they’re really his helpers.

For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others, why don’t I hear more about St. John the Apostle who was the only one worthy enough to care for Christ Jesus’ mother?

John 19: The Crucifixion
25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Peter, Scripturally didn’t exactly behave infallible: denied Christ Jesus three times, cut off a soldiers ear when directly told by Christ Jesus to stand down, falls through the water due to a lack of faith, wasn’t able to cast out demons due to a lack of faith, Christ Jesus calls him by the name “Satan” when he offered to die for our sins in Christ Jesus’ place, was rebuked by St. Paul for forcing Christians to be circumcised as Jews before allowing baptism.

Merriam-Webster: infallible–incapable of error, incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals, not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint

Don’t get me wrong, God can work miracles of his choosing, and the other Apostles had their issues as well. In the end, all of them served purpose God had for them, they passed on, and a new generation of believers emerged to carry God’s Word forward with them to Jews and Gentiles alike. Believers are the Church, and they’re carried by God to where the Word is needed, period. I simply can’t comprehend an apostolic evangelism that sits upon a throne and remains of virtual lock-down, considering all the other Apostles became martyrs in the mission field. I have never been presented with comprehensive Scripture that says none of the other Apostles evangelized on the level Peter did.

The Office of the Keys or Institution of the Keys is the most significant part of Scripture that pertains to Peter, but he certainly isn’t beyond sin, error, or properly defining doctrine as we can clearly tell from Scripture. What he can do, is forgive sins and withhold forgiveness, as he manages the “narrow gate” into heaven.

Matthew 16
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection

21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
 
Daniel Stinson;10472535]Which Pope, the one at: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, Avignon, Alexandria…? Perhaps the multitude of popes were Peter’s helpers? But I’d much rather see Christ Jesus get the credit, as they’re really his helpers.
Jesus does get all the credit.
For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others, why don’t I hear more about St. John the Apostle who was the only one worthy enough to care for Christ Jesus’ mother?
Approved Marian apparitions probably has something to do with it. Just look at all the people Mary, via these approved miraculous apparitions, has drawn to her Son. Pretty cool.
Peter, Scripturally didn’t exactly behave infallible: denied Christ Jesus three times, cut off a soldiers ear when directly told by Christ Jesus to stand down, falls through the water due to a lack of faith, wasn’t able to cast out demons due to a lack of faith, Christ Jesus calls him by the name “Satan” when he offered to die for our sins in Christ Jesus’ place, was rebuked by St. Paul for forcing Christians to be circumcised as Jews before allowing baptism.
Jesus later charged Peter to “feed my lambs,” “tend my sheep,” “feed my sheep.”

That is because Peter was a fallible man who taught infallibly.
Merriam-Webster: infallible–incapable of error, incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals, not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint
None of the apostles were infallible men, and yet they all taught infallibly. God gets all the credit.
I simply can’t comprehend an apostolic evangelism that sits upon a throne and remains of virtual lock-down, considering all the other Apostles became martyrs in the mission field. I have never been presented with comprehensive Scripture that says none of the other Apostles evangelized on the level Peter did.
I am sure they did. 👍 Heck, most of the NT is written by saint Paul.
The Office of the Keys or Institution of the Keys is the most significant part of Scripture that pertains to Peter, but he certainly isn’t beyond sin, error, or properly defining doctrine as we can clearly tell from Scripture.
So Peter could not properly define doctrine? Hmm…
What he can do, is forgive sins and withhold forgiveness, as he manages the “narrow gate” into heaven.
Only God can forgive sin…
Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection
21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
Why stop there:

“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
 
Which Pope, the one at: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, Avignon, Alexandria…? Perhaps the multitude of popes were Peter’s helpers? But I’d much rather see Christ Jesus get the credit, as they’re really his helpers.
Daniel, this argument is nothing but demagoguery. An honest study of ECF’s and Church History (Prior to 1500’s specifically, focusing on the first 1,000 years) clearly demonstrates the leadership role of Rome and the respect of ALL the other Churches to its Primacy.

The one here:

[bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]John 21:15-17[/bibledrb]

And yes, Christ Jesus gets all the credit. Indeed it was Him who pointed to Peter, as it was Him who pointed to the other Apostles, as it was Him who made the ultimate sacrifice of the salvation of our souls, as it was Him who instituted His Church, as it was Him who taught the Apostles, as it was Him who was before Abraham, Him through Whom everything visible and invisible was made, Him who can be found in the fullness of His Church - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

We (Catholics) KNOW it is Christ Jesus who gets the credit, and we have known for almost 2,000 years of defending and preaching His Gospel. Not the Gospel of men and ideas of men, but His ideas and His truth.

Next time please Capitalize His pronoun. And next time please keep in mind you are talking to a Christian. I don’t appreciate your patronizing tone and would greatly appreciate you research more about my Faith before you come to criticize it. I’ll be the first one to admit that it is a daunting task to read objectively almost 2,000 years of Church history, especially when one’s view is dominated by so much prejudice and misconceptions.
 
For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others,
A Catholic priest named Martin once said :

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”

And this

“Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation”

Always know that Mary points us to her Son as the Gospel says in the wedding feast “do whatever he tells you”. We are to do…whatever Jesus tells us. From the Catechism…

487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

Consider how the Jews in the OT honored the Ark of the Convenant. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, who contained the Word of God in the flesh, the high Priest and the Bread of Life. The focus is always on her Son. Protestants do not understand that Jesus is using Mary to call us to him. This is biblical and continues in private revelation, most notably at Lourdes and Fatima. The miracle of the Sun at Fatima is quite public…given it occurred in front of 70,000 people.

youtube.com/watch?v=hyIpE1_qIFM
why don’t I hear more about St. John the Apostle who was the only one worthy enough to care for Christ Jesus’ mother?
Catholics listen to St John a lot in Church. :). Based on Jesus giving Mary to John on the cross, Luther believed that this was evidence alone, that Mary was a perpetual virgin. 👍
 
A Catholic priest named Martin once said :

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
It is kind of sad to see how out of sight she has become among the many Protestant denominations. When I was a Baptist, we only heard about the BVM during Christmas. Now there is not a day that goes by that I do not think about her and ask her to help me. She is a gift from God that many refuse to take. :confused:
In your dialog, you always seem to be thinking several ‘moves’ ahead - this is a good thing and I enjoy it! Your charity combined with keen insight builds faith not only for your fellow Catholics but for this Lutheran.
So you are saying we should not play chess with her? lol
 
Which Pope, the one at: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, Avignon, Alexandria…? Perhaps the multitude of popes were Peter’s helpers? But I’d much rather see Christ Jesus get the credit, as they’re really his helpers.
Daniel…I am interested in what you believe about the Catholic Church as a whole. The title of the thread is error begets error. So where do you see the error in the Catholic Church exactly? Keep it charitable so you do not get in trouble but speak honestly please. 👍
 
In your dialog, you always seem to be thinking several ‘moves’ ahead - this is a good thing and I enjoy it! Your charity combined with keen insight builds faith not only for your fellow Catholics but for this Lutheran.
Well, friend, if it appears that I am several “moves” ahead it’s only because I’ve been on the CAFs a lot longer than you have. Been there. Done that. 😉
 
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