Error Begets Error

[aidanbradypop]

No, Daniel. Just, no. This type of comment evinces this type of response:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq4dxeIiuE1qht847.gif

I cannot speak for Ben or Jon, but the majority of Lutherans I know are very anti Chair of Peter.

 

[PRmerger]

For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others, why don’t I hear more about St. John the Apostle who was the only one worthy enough to care for Christ Jesus’ mother?

With all due respect, Daniel, the Catholic Church is big enough to do both. We venerate Mary, the Mother of God (as Martin Luther did, BTW. But you already knew that, but perhaps forgot?).

Were you aware that there are entire parishes in Catholic diocese around the world named after St. John the Apostle?

And that there is a feast day in the CC dedicated to him?

Does the Lutheran church have an entire day set apart to give him honor?

 

[PRmerger]

Oh! You have to be in a certain position to be able to do that?!

Indeed. It does seem to be an argument for hierarchy, as presented in the CC.

And it does seem to be an argument against the position, “I can read the Scriptures and come to my own decision about what it is proclaiming doctrinally!”

 

[PRmerger]

Peter, Scripturally didn’t exactly behave infallible: denied Christ Jesus three times, cut off a soldiers ear when directly told by Christ Jesus to stand down, falls through the water due to a lack of faith, wasn’t able to cast out demons due to a lack of faith, Christ Jesus calls him by the name “Satan” when he offered to die for our sins in Christ Jesus’ place, was rebuked by St. Paul for forcing Christians to be circumcised as Jews before allowing baptism.

Oh. Daniel! You are making the elementary error of confusing impeccability with infallibility.

No pope has been impeccable.

But if you don’t believe that St. Peter was able to teach infallibly, then please present the errors you believe he offered in his 2 encyclicals: 1 Peter and 2 Peter.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Oh. Daniel! You are making the elementary error of confusing impeccability with infallibility.

No pope has been impeccable.

But if you don’t believe that St. Peter was able to teach infallibly, then please present the errors you believe he offered in his 2 encyclicals: 1 Peter and 2 Peter.

I believe it would serve us better if he stated the error of the Catholic Church. As the thread is named “error begets error” it would be interesting to know what error he believe the Church to preach. It would make it much easier to dialog if we knew where he found error

 

[benjohnson]

I believe it would serve us better if he stated the error of the Catholic Church.

Put yourself back into the shoes of a 16th century German peasant, and you can see what the fuss was about.

Typically, the service at most churches was given in Latin by a pastor that didn’t understand it - they were just mouthing the words. The sermon was about subjects like dragons, luck, and local politics and just about anything other than the Gospel - generally because a good portion of priests and bishops bought their way into the position.

In order to secure heaven for your loved ones, you had to do good works - in this case, give money for indulgences.

Very few people received communion, and hardly ever both species.

The Pope wasn’t even an ordained minister, and had a pet elephant.

Now… the Catholic position is that this is just houskeeping and nothing to do with dogma - but to Luther and other Catholics, this was a disaster. For the Church - the thing that could help people come to the Gospel - seemed to be doing everything BUT teach the Gospel.

The Catholic position that no errors in Dogma were being taught officially, is substantially true.
The Lutheran position is that the Church was becoming a stumbling block is also substantially true.

So to an outside observer, both positions can be considered valid positions, and the trouble is that we wind up arguing past each-other.

 

[PRmerger]

The Pope wasn’t even an ordained minister, and had a pet elephant.

OhmyGOSH! That made me laugh out loud that my DD in the other room asked, “What’s so funny?”

That’s ridiculous that a pope had a pet elephant! No doubt it’s true. No doubt it was a different time and culture and having pet elephants was probably not quite as absurd then as it sounds today…but still!

Thanks for the chuckle.

No doubt there was need for reform. Would that Martin Luther had done it in the manner of the other saints of the time who called for reform.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Put yourself back into the shoes of a 16th century German peasant, and you can see what the fuss was about.

Typically, the service at most churches was given in Latin by a pastor that didn’t understand it - they were just mouthing the words. The sermon was about subjects like dragons, luck, and local politics and just about anything other than the Gospel - generally because a good portion of priests and bishops bought their way into the position.

In order to secure heaven for your loved ones, you had to do good works - in this case, give money for indulgences.

Very few people received communion, and hardly ever both species.

The Pope wasn’t even an ordained minister, and had a pet elephant.

Now… the Catholic position is that this is just houskeeping and nothing to do with dogma - but to Luther and other Catholics, this was a disaster. For the Church - the thing that could help people come to the Gospel - seemed to be doing everything BUT teach the Gospel.

The Catholic position that no errors in Dogma were being taught officially, is substantially true.
The Lutheran position is that the Church was becoming a stumbling block is also substantially true.

So to an outside observer, both positions can be considered valid positions, and the trouble is that we wind up arguing past each-other.

Ben…I was asking for Daniel to state where he finds error in the Catholic Church.

I want a pet meerkat

 

[allhers]

For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others,

I would like to speak to this part. Perhaps this will help you understand.
…
That Voice in the Silence
Pope Benedict XVI

'I greet you with deep affection and I would like to share a few simple thoughts with you, suggested by the Gospel for this Solemnity: the Gospel of the Annunciation.

First of all, we are always struck by and made to reflect on the fact that this moment crucial to humanity’s destiny, the moment in which God was made man, is shrouded in deep silence. The encounter between the divine messenger and the Immaculate Virgin takes place completely unnoticed;… listen to the silence in which the Lord enables us to hear his discreet voice…

Mary, on the day she received the announcement of the Angel, was in deep recollection and at the same time open to listening to God. In her there was no obstacle, no screen, nothing that separated her from God. This is the meaning of her being without original sin: her relation with God was free from even the slightest flaw; there is no separation, there is not a shadow of selfishness, but perfect harmony; her small human heart is perfectly “centred” in the great heart of God…
God’s voice is not recognized in noise and bustle; his plan for our personal and social life is not perceived by remaining on the surface but rather by descending to a deeper level, where the active power is not economic or political but moral and spiritual. There Mary invites us to come down and to put ourselves in tune with God’s action…

There is something else, something even more important which Mary Immaculate tells us when we come here, and it is that the world’s salvation is not the work of human beings — of science, of technology, of an ideology — but it comes from Grace. What does this word mean? Grace means Love in its purity and beauty, it is God himself as he revealed himself in salvation history, recounted in the Bible and in its fulfillment in Jesus Christ. Mary is called “full of grace” (Lk 1:28) and with her specific identity she reminds us of God’s primacy in our life and in the history of the world, she reminds us that the power of God’s love is stronger than evil, that it can fill the void that selfishness creates in the history of individuals, families, nations and the world.

There is more here:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16voicsilenc.HTM

 

[allhers]

Ben…I was asking for Daniel to state where he finds error in the Catholic Church.

I want a pet meerkat

I want a ferret. Us Irish are indeed a strange lot.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I want a ferret. Us Irish are indeed a strange lot.

When you have green blood, it is hard to be “normal” lol

:irish1:

 

[allhers]

When you have green blood, it is hard to be “normal” lol

:irish1:

 

[allhers]

OhmyGOSH! That made me laugh out loud that my DD in the other room asked, “What’s so funny?”

That’s ridiculous that a pope had a pet elephant! No doubt it’s true. No doubt it was a different time and culture and having pet elephants was probably not quite as absurd then as it sounds today…but still!

Thanks for the chuckle.

No doubt there was need for reform. Would that Martin Luther had done it in the manner of the other saints of the time who called for reform.

 

[allhers]

27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Jesus is speaking to ALL of us here, take her into your home.

 

[benjohnson]

I want a pet meerkat

I knew it! There IS some odd Catholic fascination with odd house pets!

I’ll get to the bottom of this and report back! :choocho:

 

[allhers]

I simply can’t comprehend an apostolic evangelism that sits upon a throne and remains of virtual lock-diown, considering all the other Apostles became martyrs in the mission field.

You didn’t know that St. Peter was also a martyr? That is why the Chair, the actual Chair itself has an upside down Cross on it, he also was Crusified and did not want to be in the same manner as our Lord and so he was Crusified upside down.

 

[allhers]

I knew it! There IS some odd Catholic fascination with odd house pets!

I’ll get to the bottom of this and report back! :choocho:

We needed a bit of humor for awhile, this stuff isn’t easy on any of us. :slapfight:

(my computer frooze up for awhile but I simply prayed a Hail Mary when I noticed it and here I am again:thumbsup

She’s a great intercessor.

 

[allhers]

Which Pope, the one at: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, Avignon, Alexandria…? Perhaps the multitude of popes were Peter’s helpers? But I’d much rather see Christ Jesus get the credit, as they’re really his helpers.

For a Church that puts so much more focus on the Virgin Mary than many others, why don’t I hear more about St. John the Apostle who was the only one worthy enough to care for Christ Jesus’ mother?

John 19: The Crucifixion
25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Peter, Scripturally didn’t exactly behave infallible: denied Christ Jesus three times, cut off a soldiers ear when directly told by Christ Jesus to stand down, falls through the water due to a lack of faith, wasn’t able to cast out demons due to a lack of faith, Christ Jesus calls him by the name “Satan” when he offered to die for our sins in Christ Jesus’ place, was rebuked by St. Paul for forcing Christians to be circumcised as Jews before allowing baptism.

Merriam-Webster: infallible–incapable of error, incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals, not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint

Don’t get me wrong, God can work miracles of his choosing, and the other Apostles had their issues as well. In the end, all of them served purpose God had for them, they passed on, and a new generation of believers emerged to carry God’s Word forward with them to Jews and Gentiles alike. Believers are the Church, and they’re carried by God to where the Word is needed, period. I simply can’t comprehend an apostolic evangelism that sits upon a throne and remains of virtual lock-down, considering all the other Apostles became martyrs in the mission field. I have never been presented with comprehensive Scripture that says none of the other Apostles evangelized on the level Peter did.

The Office of the Keys or Institution of the Keys is the most significant part of Scripture that pertains to Peter, but he certainly isn’t beyond sin, error, or properly defining doctrine as we can clearly tell from Scripture. What he can do, is forgive sins and withhold forgiveness, as he manages the “narrow gate” into heaven.

Matthew 16
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection

21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Daniel, in the future, would you mind just presenting us with one thing at a time, it would be much easier to answer your questions if they were asked one at a time, thank you.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You didn’t know that St. Peter was also a martyr? That is why the Chair, the actual Chair itself has an upside down Cross on it, he also was Crusified and did not want to be in the same manner as our Lord and so he was Crusified upside down.

:thumbsup:Because St. Peter saw himself unworthy of dying in the same manner of our Lord

 

[allhers]

:thumbsup:Because St. Peter saw himself unworthy of dying in the same manner of our Lord

Amen, very important!!