Errors of JPII

[barsapp]

johnshelby:

no man, including the Pope can send anyone to hell… they can consider someone condemned… but, that does not mean that by their word they have been condemned… declaring what the church believes is the fate of someone, is not the same as deciding that fate…

Acts, Chapter 5: “Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last… The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?” She answered, “Yes, for that amount.” Then Peter said to her, “Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.”

 

[Fergal]

Magicsilence:

Slow down.

Think about what youre saying.

Devils advocate: You’d rather side with a man in heresy than another who pointed out his errors against the Catholic Church?

Are you endorsing heresy “so long as” its JPII?

I didnt mean to come on here and bad mouth JPII, but, it is very evident that the Church is in complete crisis. And when people on the web (G-d forbid) dare to check JPII’s statements against tradition, are they wrong to point out discrepancies?

(to all other posts) If i was to tell you that Judas Iscariot was a wonderful man, full of the Holy Spirit, and had a zeal to save souls, but excluded all else information, would you not think i was being biased, and implying that he went to heaven. In as much as saying that “Luther had a profound religous spirit” is neglecting the bad he did. Please dont get me wrong. I have two view points,

1. The outside picture, the holiest man i had ever seen, full of humility and love for others, my role model.
2. The inside picture, the discrepancies in the third secret of Fatima, thousands upon thousands of web pages pointing out his errors against the faith. The very obvious freemason influence on the modern church. The changing of tradition, etc… One need only look at Assisi, which he did TWICE.

I want it all to be a misunderstanding. But it is very obvious how liberal he and Benedict XVI are/were. The more i read about the faith before the 1960’s the more disgusted I am with the way things are now. The more i read about apparitions by Our Lady, the more i see how they tie in with the present age.

A great apostasy will not come from a switch to another faith, but gently pushing away Catholics, and look what has happened, it seems the freemasons have infiltrated the Church. Just read the following link:

freemasonry

As I stated before,
I am with the Holy See of Peter all the way and all the time. I pledge my total undivided loyalty to the Holy Father and to Rome. If they are wrong (as some state they are) then I am wrong and very happy to be so.

 

[johnshelby]

barsapp:

Acts, Chapter 5: “Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last… The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?” She answered, “Yes, for that amount.” Then Peter said to her, “Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.”

You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last…

what has this to do with people having the power to send people
to hell??

 

[barsapp]

johnshelby:

You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last…what has this to do with people having the power to send people to hell??

God executes the sentence of punishment passed by the Church. When the Church anathematizes all heretics that means complete separation from the Church. As there is no salvation outside the Church, we can affirm that heretics burn in Hell.

 

[Convert68]

The quotes taken out of context that supposedly prove John Paul II in error are mostly attributed to previous popes. Unless they are speaking ex cathedra or otherwise pronouncing doctrines binding upon the whole Church for all time, their opinions are worth no more than any other pope’s including the present one or Pope John Paul II.

 

[vern_humphrey]

barsapp:

God executes the sentence of punishment passed by the Church. When the Church anathematizes all heretics that means complete separation from the Church. As there is no salvation outside the Church, we can affirm that heretics burn in Hell.

No, we can’t.

We cannot tell if a person made a good act of contrition before dying, regardless of what they may have done in their lives.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

barsapp:

God executes the sentence of punishment passed by the Church. When the Church anathematizes all heretics that means complete separation from the Church. As there is no salvation outside the Church, we can affirm that heretics burn in Hell.

You also fail to distinguish between formal and material heretics. The former can be held accountable for their heresy, the latter cannot (according to the Catechism, promulgated for the entire Church by the Vicar of Christ on earth as a “sure norm” for teaching the faith).

AND, once again, to paraphrase someone on the forums, who was guoting his or her priest, fall from the left or fall from the right, if one has fallen out of the boat, one has fallen out of the boat. Father Feeny’s error is just as wrong as any of Father McBrien’s.

 

[Lorarose]

I think the posters on this thread would be interested in Patrick Madrid’s book, More Catholic Than the Pope.

Many of the issues brought up here are addressed very well.

 

[barsapp]

JKirkLVNV:

You also fail to distinguish between formal and material heretics. The former can be held accountable for their heresy, the latter cannot (according to the Catechism, promulgated for the entire Church by the Vicar of Christ on earth as a “sure norm” for teaching the faith).

Regarding the difference between formal and material heretics, I do not understand how enters here. Formal heretics are the most, so I simply talk about “heretics”, as the Church does in her documents. Usually that in vogue difference is used to tolerate, soften and justify heresy.

From Pope Leo XIII’s Satis Cognitum (29 June 1896)

The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition” (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

 

[vern_humphrey]

The Pope’s mission and authority is to teach us.

If he seems to be wrong in our eyes, the fault is in us, not in him. We have failed to understand.

 

[johnshelby]

barsapp:

Regarding the difference between formal and material heretics, I do not understand how enters here. Formal heretics are the most, so I simply talk about “heretics”, as the Church does in her documents. Usually that in vogue difference is used to tolerate, soften and justify heresy.

From Pope Leo XIII’s Satis Cognitum (29 June 1896)

The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition” (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

you very well know the difference… it’s in the catechism…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

barsapp:

Regarding the difference between formal and material heretics, I do not understand how enters here. Formal heretics are the most, so I simply talk about “heretics”, as the Church does in her documents. Usually that in vogue difference is used to tolerate, soften and justify heresy.

From Pope Leo XIII’s Satis Cognitum (29 June 1896)

The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition” (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

Which has been explain, explicated, illuminated, enlarged upon (pick your word) by the CCC. I’ll have to find the quote, but I’m sure you’ve seen it posted in these threads.

 

[barsapp]

vern humphrey:

No, we can’t.We cannot tell if a person made a good act of contrition before dying, regardless of what they may have done in their lives.

Matt 25, 41: “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So, accursed, heretics, anathematized, do burn in hell…

If they made or not a deep act of contrition before dying, is another complete different issue… (It is still really difficult to imagine when, for example, Ananias and his wife (Acts, chapter 5) would have done it…).

 

[johnshelby]

JKirkLVNV:

Which has been explain, explicated, illuminated, enlarged upon (pick your word) by the CCC. I’ll have to find the quote, but I’m sure you’ve seen it posted in these threads.

817
In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin:

      Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.

this the part you refering to??

 

[vern_humphrey]

barsapp:

Matt 25, 41: “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So, accursed, heretics, anathematized, do burn in hell…

If they made or not a deep act of contrition before dying, is another complete different issue… (It is still really difficult to imagine when, for example, Ananias and his wife (Acts, chapter 5) would have done it…).

It doesn’t matter what we personally feel – the Church does not condemn anyone.

Anyone can sin – and sin greviously – and still be forgiven and saved.

 

[barsapp]

vern humphrey:

The Pope’s mission and authority is to teach us.If he seems to be wrong in our eyes, the fault is in us, not in him. We have failed to understand.

i perfectly understand:
“The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church…and from this genuine and single source, like ‘humble, useful, precious and chaste’ water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: ‘There is no salvation outside the Church.’ From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.” (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter’s and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L’Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

From the Catechism:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And further, from the Catechism:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[barsapp]

vern humphrey:

It doesn’t matter what we personally feel – the Church does not condemn anyone.

Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways… It seems to me that you are talking about what can or could happen before a person dies. And I agree with you: a repentant heretic is no more a heretic, so he can go to heaven. Why not? Is not our whole life an act of repentance?

But, if an accursed, or a heretic, or anathematized by the Church, dies in that condition, he burns in hell. God judges, but God is his Church. God is in his Church. Hell is also necessary for the love of the good.

Matt 19, 28: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.””.

Luke 22, 30: “you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.

1 Cor. 6, 2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

barsapp:

Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways… It seems to me that you are talking about what can or could happen before a person dies. And I agree with you: a repentant heretic is no more a heretic, so he can go to heaven. Why not? Is not our whole life an act of repentance?

But, if an accursed, or a heretic, or anathematized by the Church, dies in that condition, he burns in hell. God judges, but God is his Church. God is in his Church. Hell is also necessary for the love of the good.

Matt 19, 28: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.””.

Luke 22, 30: “you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.

1 Cor. 6, 2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

You can not use those verses definitively for the purpose you intend. They all speak of future events, indeed, they seem to speak of when Christ comes in His Glory. That is in the future.
Also, what you say about the state of heretics is not necessarily so…you make no reference to the passage of the Catechism which I cited. And scripture means what the Church says it means.

 

[Magicsilence]

Jaypeeto3:

I don’t what to make of all the pope-bashing, either, but Pope Benedict XVI seems to re-define Original Sin in a way never before held by the church. The below is a huge quote from Joseph Ratzinger (not out of context) on the issue of Original Sin. In it, he does not uphold the classical Catholic view that O.S. is passed on from our First Parents TO US by GENERATION, which is defined catholic dogma. If anyone knows of a quote from the current Holy Father where he DOES uphold the defined description of Original Sin, I would very much like to be directed to it, because I certainly don’t want to think ill of him. He seems such a gentle and kind man.
Love, Jaypeeto3

Here is the long quotation:

“In the Genesis sto … Sin pursues the human being, and he or she capitulates to it.”

–Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, ‘In the Beginning…’, pp. 71-73

Funny how this post has been ignored?

Anyone?

The longer this thread becomes and the more often the OP contributes to it, the more obvious it is that he/she is himself/herself of a radical “traditionalist” stance. I don’t believe he/she came her for information or even opinions, but rather to sow even greater discord in the Church. John Paull the Great will be declared a saint. The site should be ignored, as Vern said, with the same resolution we would give to ignoring Jack Chick.

Um, OUCH. Please, for goodness sake, read what ive written before judging me. I think i have contributed twice with actual information.? I do not wish to sow discord in the Church, if i came to do such a thing please provide evidence of me doing so. I am simply searching for the Truth. I am sorry that makes you so angry.

As if you have the authority to judge the Magesterium.

Why do you attack me instead of defending?

There is no “strange revert.” The error isn’t the Church’s. It is yours.

I never intended to imply it was an error of the Church, if you read the title of the thread you can see what I am trying to discuss.

Men CAN be fallible, so please dont twist what ive said and then attack me with false notions!

As I stated before,
I am with the Holy See of Peter all the way and all the time. I pledge my total undivided loyalty to the Holy Father and to Rome. If they are wrong (as some state they are) then I am wrong and very happy to be so.

Hmmm, the church is never wrong, but individual popes can be, make sure to whom you are swearing allegiance.

Especially faithful Catholics who identify with “traditionalist” and who are NOT promoting this empty chair position.

Please, if you are going to attack me, READ THE WHOLE THREAD, I have already stated that i think the sedevacantist position is pure insanity. I am simply trying to understand how people view the pope, maybe I am wrong, if that is the case, it is your job to show me the light, HELP me. However, I can not say that at this moment in time anything said on this thread has been of much help ( Church Militant, I loved the letter, awesome inspiration). Yes I believe we should rally round our pope, but when he is promoting such things as calls to interfaith prayer, Im not sure how to respond.

Jesus help me.

Andre.