Errors of JPII

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barsapp:
I think we basically agree.
Still, any comments?: Yesterday “with a clear majority, the Synod (251 members) of the Church of Sweden voted to allow gay couples to have their partnership blessed in church”. Is this not heresy? Are these members of the Swedish synod “formal” or “material” heretics? Heresy leads to more heresy. They have no excuse.
Matt 15, 14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides (of the blind). If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit."
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Sorry, missed that. Yes, that’s rank heresy. We as Catholics should decry that, but there’s lots of Lutherans who are going to freak out as well, just like there’s lots of Anglicans (most of that communion, in fact, due to the size of that church in Africa) who freaked over V. Gene Robinson. That’s one state church in one state (well, I’m sure the other Scandinavian countries’ state churches will follow suit).
 
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barsapp:
Not at all. What you have to understand is that Papal Infallibility has to do with ex cathedra pronouncements (dogma and morals). In this case, the Pope must follow Scripture, Tradition and previous Magisterium. So, the Pope has not the freedom to teach anything contrary to Scripture, Tradition and previous Magisterium.
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Did John Paul II really say all men are saved? Some of the things he is accused of saying on that website would contradict Christian doctrine (I am not concerned about his alleged violations of Catholic tradition for obvious reasons 😉 ) Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion? Its goal is for a person to escape all bonds of emotion, feeling and relationship inorder to cease existing as a conscious being. The goal of Christianity is to have the greatest possible relationship (one with Christ) and experience the most profound forms of peace, love, joy and devotion.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Yes, that’s rank heresy. We as Catholics should decry that, but there’s lots of Lutherans who are going to freak out as well
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good lutherans convert to catholicism.
 
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Vincent1560:
Did John Paul II really say all men are saved? Some of the things he is accused of saying on that website would contradict Christian doctrine (I am not concerned about his alleged violations of Catholic tradition for obvious reasons 😉 ) Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion? Its goal is for a person to escape all bonds of emotion, feeling and relationship inorder to cease existing as a conscious being. The goal of Christianity is to have the greatest possible relationship (one with Christ) and experience the most profound forms of peace, love, joy and devotion.
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One of the very good reasons we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope is that there are people busily pulling things out of context and spinning them to make them say what John Paul the Great never said or meant.
 
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Vincent1560:
Did John Paul II really say all men are saved? Some of the things he is accused of saying on that website would contradict Christian doctrine (I am not concerned about his alleged violations of Catholic tradition for obvious reasons 😉 ) Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion? Its goal is for a person to escape all bonds of emotion, feeling and relationship inorder to cease existing as a conscious being. The goal of Christianity is to have the greatest possible relationship (one with Christ) and experience the most profound forms of peace, love, joy and devotion.
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It is acceptable for Catholics to hope that all might be saved. I would like to see where JP II said that they all will be saved. It will be a long wait.

Buddhism is a “great” religion. There is a lot of good and beauty in it. All men are hard-wired to desire God and to be in relationship with him, and even without divine revelation, Buddhists have walked quite a way. The fact that they have not had the advantage of divine revelation and the fullness of truth that we enjoy as Christians does not mean that there is nothing good in Buddhism.

Christians have nothing to gain by needlessly denigrating the good that lies in other faiths. We have everything! We can afford to be generous.

I would not be Catholic today if many, many Catholics had not affirmed what was true in my pre-Catholic experience and encouraged me to take a step further into the mystery of Christ’s fulness in his Church. Same thing applies to non-Christians.
 
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mercygate:
I would not be Catholic today if many, many Catholics had not affirmed what was true in my pre-Catholic experience and encouraged me to take a step further into the mystery of Christ’s fulness in his Church. Same thing applies to non-Christians.
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:amen: :blessyou: I wouldn’t be a Christian at all, let alone a Catholic, if I hadn’t had the loving example of my devout Baptist grandparents. I reject any notion that she is in Hell or he’s headed there simply because they weren’t/aren’t Catholic.
 
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Vincent1560:
Did John Paul II really say all men are saved? Some of the things he is accused of saying on that website would contradict Christian doctrine (I am not concerned about his alleged violations of Catholic tradition for obvious reasons 😉 ) Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion? Its goal is for a person to escape all bonds of emotion, feeling and relationship inorder to cease existing as a conscious being. The goal of Christianity is to have the greatest possible relationship (one with Christ) and experience the most profound forms of peace, love, joy and devotion.
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“Did John Paul II really say all men are saved?”

Not at all. See again post #132.

I do not find the list on post #1 very useful. It is not accurate. The important point is to reject modernism and liberalism and fight heresy. Some aspects of Buddhism are positive if you understand it more as a philosophy than a religion. Buddha’s atheism is kind of respectable. He realized the vanity of life. He fought against the passions of the flesh. He lived a life of sacrifice and renunciation. He understood how miserable human condition is and tried honestly to reach enlightenment…That’s ok. We can say that he was an Atheist “in search of truth”.

“Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion?”

You know… those “welcome words” or “farewell words”… if you are going to visit a Buddhist temple, what are you going to say? “You are going to burn in hell”? if you are going to visit a synagogue, what are you going to say: “Damned forever the assassins of Our Lord”? If you are going to visit, etc, etc, etc, what are you going to say: “Let be anathema”?

Are these visits necessary? Are going to be fruitful? Anyway, they represent only a policy. You can agree with it or not.
 
barsapp said:
“Did John Paul II really say all men are saved?”

Not at all. See again post #132.

I do not find the list on post #1 very useful. It is not accurate. The important point is to reject modernism and liberalism and fight heresy. Some aspects of Buddhism are positive if you understand it more as a philosophy than a religion. Buddha’s atheism is kind of respectable. He realized the vanity of life. He fought against the passions of the flesh. He lived a life of sacrifice and renunciation. He understood how miserable human condition is and tried honestly to reach enlightenment…That’s ok. We can say that he was an Atheist “in search of truth”.

“Also how could he say Buddhism is a great religion?”

You know… those “welcome words” or “farewell words”… if you are going to visit a Buddhist temple, what are you going to say? “You are going to burn in hell”? if you are going to visit a synagogue, what are you going to say: “Damned forever the assassins of Our Lord”? If you are going to visit, etc, etc, etc, what are you going to say: “Let be anathema”?

Are these visits necessary? Are going to be fruitful? Anyway, they represent only a policy. You can agree with it or not.
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Personally I will confess to being guilty of not always standing up for the Lord as much as I should. As for your question I think we should follow the example of Jesus and Paul when they entered the synagogues. They reasoned from the scriptures and presented the truth. They were not condemning (unless faced with hypocrisy) and treated the members of the synagogue who would hear them with love and respect. But part of that love is sharing the truth. It is easier to say your religion is good and can lead you to truth, but I do not think that is the best way. But again I am guilty of this as well.
 
I am begining to worry that this thread may be becoming a stumbling block for some of the Catholics on this board. While I do not agree with papal infallibility I do not wish to continue to challenge it on this thread if it is going to provoke doubts about the Christian faith in my Catholic brothers and sisters. Do any of the moderators have thoughts on this? I want to be as respectful as possible and am not sure what good limits are as far as voicing my disagreement on matters of Catholic tradition.
 
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Vincent1560:
I think we should follow the example of Jesus and Paul when they entered the synagogues. They reasoned from the scriptures and presented the truth.
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Jesus presenting the truth at a synagogue: Luke 4, 28-30: “When the people in the synagogue heard this, they were all filled with fury. They rose up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town had been built, to hurl him down headlong. But he passed through the midst of them and went away.”
 
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Vincent1560:
I am begining to worry that this thread may be becoming a stumbling block for some of the Catholics on this board.
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do not worry about us, better worry about those who do not understand that there is no salvation outside the Church!
 
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Vincent1560:
I am begining to worry that this thread may be becoming a stumbling block for some of the Catholics on this board. While I do not agree with papal infallibility I do not wish to continue to challenge it on this thread if it is going to provoke doubts about the Christian faith in my Catholic brothers and sisters. Do any of the moderators have thoughts on this? I want to be as respectful as possible and am not sure what good limits are as far as voicing my disagreement on matters of Catholic tradition.
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Do you represent yourself as a Catholic?

Then you are not bound to accept the infallibility of the Magisterium, and we will gladly debate that issue with you.

But people who represent themselves as Catholics are not in the same category.

And of course we are not bound to accept every cockamamie accusation and wierd interpretation that someone posts on the Web as if it were carved in stone.
 
vern humphrey:
And of course we are not bound to accept every cockamamie accusation and wierd interpretation that someone posts on the Web as if it were carved in stone.
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Aw, vern humphrey – you’re a party pooper. Those cockamamie accusations are half the fun! :rotfl:
 
vern humphrey:
Do you represent yourself as a Catholic?

Then you are not bound to accept the infallibility of the Magisterium, and we will gladly debate that issue with you.

But people who represent themselves as Catholics are not in the same category.

And of course we are not bound to accept every cockamamie accusation and wierd interpretation that someone posts on the Web as if it were carved in stone.
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No I don’t represent myself as a Catholic. I am an evangelical protestant. I enjoy many of the writings of Catholic theologians and consider Catholics to be part of the Christian community and strong allies on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, 1st amendment issues etc. However I do not agree with many aspects of Catholic tradition which is why I am not Catholic.
 
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Vincent1560:
No I don’t represent myself as a Catholic. I am an evangelical protestant. I enjoy many of the writings of Catholic theologians and consider Catholics to be part of the Christian community and strong allies on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, 1st amendment issues etc. However I do not agree with many aspects of Catholic tradition which is why I am not Catholic.
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We have no problems debating issues with people of other sects.
 
vern humphrey:
Are you challnging me?
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Yes.

If a something has not been declared as infallible or part of the defined teaching of the church who are YOU to decide that I have no right to decide between two different Popes opinions on Biblical interpretations?

Blessings,
Richard
 
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