Errors that need correcting!

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ByzCath,

I accept the teachings of the Catechism regarding faith.

“Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come” (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2). (CCC 184). Faith is a gift from God which can be lost (CCC 162).

Given such a definition (taken from a quote by St. Thomas Aquinas … go figure), I disagree that the Catechism teaches that Jesus had faith. Instead of that faith which is merely a “foretaste of the knowledge” Jesus is omniscient. He was never awaiting that blessing in the life to come, as he was always perfectly blessed, before His Incarnation and afterwards.

Given the definition of faith above, from the Catechism, nobody in pefect union with God can rightly be said to have faith. It is a gift which can be lost (CCC 162). Faith does not apply to the Incarnate Jesus, whose hypostatic union to the Divine nature could never be lost. This also applies to those in heaven glorified in the presence of God, who also do not possess the gift of faith, which can be lost.
 
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Vincent:
Perhaps this is what you’re looking for:

“Such a vision and enjoyment of the divine essence do away with the acts of faith and hope in these souls, inasmuch as faith and hope are properly theological virtues. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever.”

—Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus​
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Well done, Vincent. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
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Vincent:
Perhaps this is what you’re looking for:

“Such a vision and enjoyment of the divine essence do away with the acts of faith and hope in these souls, inasmuch as faith and hope are properly theological virtues. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever.”

—Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus​
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Vincent,
Just to note, Benedictus Deus does not really address the issue at hand directly. It only covers…
the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels.
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Now I can see where this can cover the issue but it is not direct.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
ByzCath,

I accept the teachings of the Catechism regarding faith.

“Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come” (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2). (CCC 184). Faith is a gift from God which can be lost (CCC 162).

Given such a definition (taken from a quote by St. Thomas Aquinas … go figure), I disagree that the Catechism teaches that Jesus had faith. Instead of that faith which is merely a “foretaste of the knowledge” Jesus is omniscient. He was never awaiting that blessing in the life to come, as he was always perfectly blessed, before His Incarnation and afterwards.

Given the definition of faith above, from the Catechism, nobody in pefect union with God can rightly be said to have faith. It is a gift which can be lost (CCC 162). Faith does not apply to the Incarnate Jesus, whose hypostatic union to the Divine nature could never be lost. This also applies to those in heaven glorified in the presence of God, who also do not possess the gift of faith, which can be lost.
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Now given this comment, I can see more where you are coming from.

I do not necessarily agree with you but I am closer now.

I have some things to think on and some reading to do before I can say that I am where you are but as this issue is really extra and has no bearing on my faith I will get to it when I have time.

It works better when you use logic and show that work rather than just quoting non-magisterial works.
 
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ByzCath:
Vincent,
Just to note, Benedictus Deus does not really address the issue at hand directly. It only covers…

Now I can see where this can cover the issue but it is not direct.
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When you say “issue” do you mean whether Christ had the theological virtue of faith?

Or do you mean (per your post #36, to which I provided the quotation from BD) whether the theological virtue of faith is no longer necessary in the Beatific Vision?
 
Théodred:
And He didn’t have hope, either. 😛 😛 😛 😛
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😃 You have an evil side to you, don’t you? 😃

Me thinks David (Theodred) is trying to get Dave (itsjustdave) and David (ByzCath) to argue some more. Must be a ‘David thing.’
 
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Vincent:
When you say “issue” do you mean whether Christ had the theological virtue of faith?

Or do you mean (per your post #36, to which I provided the quotation from BD) whether the theological virtue of faith is no longer necessary in the Beatific Vision?
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The first one. What you posted answers the second one out right but I do see how it can be applied to the first one.

Yes Dave, I think David may be trying to keep this up. 😛

As for the issue of the theological virtues being necessary in the Beatific Vision. What about Hope and Charity?
 
I recommend reading what that wacky Latin doctor has to say:

?SUMMAChristhope

I believe that faith yields to sight, and hope yields to possession, but “God’s love endures forever” (Ps 136:1).
 
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ByzCath:
The first one. What you posted answers the second one out right but I do see how it can be applied to the first one.
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I guess it applies to the first one by deduction: Jesus being fully human and enjoying the Beatific Vision from the first moment of his conception, etc.
As for the issue of the theological virtues being necessary in the Beatific Vision. What about Hope and Charity?
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In Benedictus Deus, the act of hope as a theological virtue is said to be “done away with”. It makes sense since the Beatific Vision involves the possession of that which was hoped for on earth. BD doesn’t discuss charity, but I think Charity would be remain in Heaven on account of “Love never fails” (c.f. 1 Corinthians 13). And there’s the definition as that “by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God,” which is what Heaven’s all about, I’d think.
 
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