Escathology (End Times)

[AmazingLove]

One of the most intriguing parts of the Catholic doctrine is the Escathology or the End Times since almost every denomination Christian or non-Christian alike is most concerned about this. First, I wanted to have some clarifications about the terms Pre-millenialism, Amillenialism and Post-millenialism and what are their differences? Are they related to the tribulation (wherein Jesus and those who died and alive in Christ will meet each other in the sky)? Is there anything in the scripture that I can point out to my Protestant friends regarding what we Catholics believe on what will occur in the End Times? Is the Millenial Kingdom of Christ already in effect in the present times or do we still needed to wait for His Millenial Kingdom to be established or to happen? I hope you can give me a scholarly insight about this. God bless us all!

 

[DavidFilmer]

One of the most intriguing parts of the Catholic doctrine is the Escathology or the End Times since almost every denomination Christian or non-Christian alike is most concerned about this.

You will find that the Catholic Church is the exception to this rule. The Church has very little doctrine related to the subject - and what She does teach is pretty much limited to personal/general judgement. Offhand, I can’t think of any Eschatological doctrine which extends beyond these concepts.

The Church has no doctrine whatsoever regarding pre/mid/post-Trib, or whatever-millenialism, or how Armageddon or the Rapture plays out. The Church has nothing to say about Gog or Magog. These are all concepts that would be unfamiliar to most Catholics.

The problem is that the Catholic Church is not at liberty to teach about things that people are interested in - She is limited by the Deposit of Faith - the Church can only teach what is revealed to Her in that Deposit. The Church can define doctrine about this, and nothing else. It seems that Our Lord did not include eschatology in that Deposit. That is not surprising, considering some other things he said regarding our ignorance of these things, which is part of God’s plan.

My own personal opinion: Nobody really cares about eschatology unless he believes the end-times are near. I’ve never met a Catholic who thinks this. I believe that humanity has many thousands of years ahead if it.

 

[Fink]

The Church has no doctrine whatsoever regarding pre/mid/post-Trib, or whatever-millenialism, or how Armageddon or the Rapture plays out. The Church has nothing to say about Gog or Magog. These are all concepts that would be unfamiliar to most Catholics.

The Church condemns millenialism, plus any modified forms of it. She also condemns the doctrine of the Rapture as it`s understood by Fundamentalists and others.

My own personal opinion: Nobody really cares about eschatology unless he believes the end-times are near. *** I’ve never met a Catholic who thinks this.*** I believe that humanity has many thousands of years ahead if it.

Youre lucky! i know a fair few Catholics who wallow in it, and cant wait to get their hands on yet another “End Times” book! They like to drool over the latest “blood n guts”, “death and destruction” crackpot rubbish. Extremely unhealthy pastime!

There`s money in it for the authors of that sensationalist stuff.

 

[ryanoneil]

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.

(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church).

 

[DavidFilmer]

i know a fair few Catholics who wallow in it, and cant wait to get their hands on yet another "End Times" book! They like to drool over the latest "blood n` guts", “death and destruction” crackpot rubbish. Extremely unhealthy pastime!

Out of curiosity, have you ever known of a “the end is near” book written by a Catholic? I don’t mean a book about eschatology, but a book that claims the end is imminent (by “imminent” I mean in the next 100 years or so - we are talking about Catholics here; we have a different perspective on time than most protestants).

I don’t believe in individual destiny (ie, I don’t believe that we are all on this earth for a specific purpose, other than to know and love God and our neighbor). But I do believe that humanity has a destiny. I have no idea what it might be, but I am very sure we’re a long way from fulfilling it.

 

[AmazingLove]

Thanks ryanoneil for the information about the end times and thanks for other’s insights as well God Bless!

 

[holmj2674]

There is an excellent Catholic book out there called The Rapture Trap that is more or less a response to the very popular protestant series “Left Behind.” It refutes many of the false beliefs that have been spread about the end times by fundamentalist circles. Its actualy quite a fascinating story that I don’t have time to get into right now.

 

[Ron_Obvious]

scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html

John Salza’s website has some information on End Times/Second Coming.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks ryanoneil for the information about the end times and thanks for other’s insights as well God Bless!

Your welcome! My post is from scripturecatholic.com

 

[Fink]

Out of curiosity, have you ever known of a “the end is near” book written by a Catholic? I don’t mean a book about eschatology, but a book that claims the end is imminent (by “imminent” I mean in the next 100 years or so - we are talking about Catholics here; we have a different perspective on time than most protestants).
.

i cant give you a straight answer; but a lot of these Catholic-authored books claim that a great upheaval will hit us VERY soon, certainly within 100 years, complete with mass destruction; followed by a LITERAL 1,000 year era of peace. And then: Doomsday! The Church teaches against belief in a literal future millenium; and, actually, were in it right now; and have been since our Lord`s time.

Although not exactly answering your question, the books mentioned below are examples of “end times” literature by Catholics:

Ted and Maureen Flynn who run an outfit called “MaxKol” (Maxmillian Kolbe) authored a book called “the Thunder of Justice”: blood n guts etc. It makes use of “evidence” from some dodgy “sources”: eg Garabandal, Medjugorje, obscure so-called mystics.

Tom Gaughan (an Australian, i think), who supposedly spent ten years of research (WOW!) brought out “Countdown to Armageddon: and Beyond”. Again, some dodgy “sources”: eg John Leary, who has received outrageous “messages” from Heaven, including a RAPTURE!. The Church teaches against the Fundamentalist-style Rapture. His “revelations” were given the thumbs down by the bishop of Rochester NY.

John Leary publishes his “messages”; and insists that they`re from Heaven, in spite of the bishops directive to put a disclaimer in each of his new volumes. Disobedience!

The late Fr. Gobbi had some strange “messages”.

Angelo Mazzaresi authored “The Era of Peace”. He claims to be a Scripture scholar: he did a Scripture course; so technically, he`s not lying. He uses Scripture, the Church Fathers, mystics etc; and by SELECTIVELY quoting, his conclusions seem OK…until you scratch the surface. Anyone can selectively quote Scripture and the Church Fathers to “prove” just about anything!
He even gives approximate dates: long gone!

Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi authored “The Triumph of God`s Kingdom in the MIllenium and End Times”. He belongs to the so-called Divine Will movement which claims that “The Kingdom of the Divine Will” will reign on Earth for however long: some say 1,000 years; some say shorter.

Another book whose name and (Catholic) author i can`t remember gave Nostradamus more than just a plug!

Can`t think of any other books at the moment; but most, if not all, push “The Kingdom of the Divine Will”.

ive read all but Fr. Iannuzzis book; a long time ago, though; and cant remember anything but the overarching ideas. The authors are Catholics, all right; but i reckon theyve been influenced by Fundamentalist beliefs. The same with the gullible readers: in this (geographic) area, i know some “end times” Catholics who were rapt in videos by Texe Marrs!!!

Because of suspect “revelations”, some Catholics think that Pope Benedict XVI may actually be an anti-pope…

As said before, wallowing in this stuff is unhealthy…and DANGEROUS!

There`s probably a good bit of money to be made out of publishing an “end times” book.

 

[Church_Militant]

I just finished a very good study on this topic that you can get very reasonably from San Juan Catholic Seminars and it’s called Beginning Apologetics 8.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Cost: $5.95

 

[AmazingLove]

Hello thanks for your insights however I’m living in the Philippines so I think that the books you have recommended me are not available here

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello thanks for your insights however I’m living in the Philippines so I think that the books you have recommended me are not available here

Order them online and they’ll mail them to you. Catholic Answers has them in the online bookshop.

 

[SoulSeeker]

I must “confess” that I am a Catholic who very much believes in the Millennial precept in the Revelation of John. Having spent the last 3 years studying “End Times” prophecies of the bible in depth (both the KJV and New American form), I find this the only interpretation that makes sense, assuming you take the bible literally - which I feel compelled to do.

While I realize mine is an unpopular position to hold, as a Catholic, I am unfortunately without a sufficiently experienced apologist to discuss or debate the issue with. In fact, I have a hard time finding any of my Catholic contemporaries who even read the bible, though they do own one.

When I grew up in the '50’s I attended my parish school, taught by The Sisters of the Presentation. True to proper form of that time, the bible was specifically discouraged in our indoctrination to the faith; “the bible? that is only for adults … go ask you father”.

By the time we approached high school, it changed to “that’s only for Protestants … all you need to know is in your (Baltimore) Catechism”.

Poor bible never even got opened, never was taught, never got read. So here I am approaching my own later days; exploring my relationship with Christ, trying my best to fulfill His plan for me … and reading His living words in my all-too-human attempt to know Him more fully that I may understand His Will more clearly. And all of this study, prayer and consorting with my fellow church-mates leads me to conclude this:

1. there clearly IS such a thing as the Rapture (being caught-up to meet Jesus in the air among the clouds) after-which …
2. the 7-year “End Times” events commence: World War III, the rise of the Anti-Christ, rebuilding of the 3rd Temple, the abomination of that Temple, wrapping-up with the great war called Armageddon where Christ will defeat Satan and cast him (in chains) into Hell for 1,000 years …
3. Thus proving He certainly WILL be coming back (for Armageddon), after-which …
4. there will be the great White Throne Judgement for all who were left behind, after-which …
5. Christ will reign over all the physical earth for 1,000 years of peace, and finally …
6. He will release Satan for his own piece of justice as The Archangel Michael promptly dispatches him into hell for all eternity. Game, set, match … heaven eternal for all who made the right choice of Christ as their Lord & Savior.

Now, I would dearly love to have the benefit of someone more knowledgeable than I to toss these ideas around with, but again, we are in short supply in my area for Catholics who actually know what is in their bibles. And when I have tried to engage 2 priests and 1 nun in conversation of this kind, I got a polite reminder of the Church’s position - preterism - and a lack of any enthusiasm to engage the topic in any other light.

I am sincerely struggling to be accurate in my reading of scripture, but can only seem to find non-Catholics who know anything about this. So, if there are Catholics out there who are well-versed and conversant in these topics I’d love to hear from you.

RSVP at will …

Many thanks, brothers and sisters in Christ … and God bless you.

 

[ryanoneil]

I must “confess” that I am a Catholic who very much believes in the Millennial precept in the Revelation of John. Having spent the last 3 years studying “End Times” prophecies of the bible in depth (both the KJV and New American form), I find this the only interpretation that makes sense, assuming you take the bible literally - which I feel compelled to do.

While I realize mine is an unpopular position to hold, as a Catholic, I am unfortunately without a sufficiently experienced apologist to discuss or debate the issue with. In fact, I have a hard time finding any of my Catholic contemporaries who even read the bible, though they do own one.

When I grew up in the '50’s I attended my parish school, taught by The Sisters of the Presentation. True to proper form of that time, the bible was specifically discouraged in our indoctrination to the faith; “the bible? that is only for adults … go ask you father”.

By the time we approached high school, it changed to “that’s only for Protestants … all you need to know is in your (Baltimore) Catechism”.

Poor bible never even got opened, never was taught, never got read. So here I am approaching my own later days; exploring my relationship with Christ, trying my best to fulfill His plan for me … and reading His living words in my all-too-human attempt to know Him more fully that I may understand His Will more clearly. And all of this study, prayer and consorting with my fellow church-mates leads me to conclude this:

1. there clearly IS such a thing as the Rapture (being caught-up to meet Jesus in the air among the clouds) after-which …
2. the 7-year “End Times” events commence: World War III, the rise of the Anti-Christ, rebuilding of the 3rd Temple, the abomination of that Temple, wrapping-up with the great war called Armageddon where Christ will defeat Satan and cast him (in chains) into Hell for 1,000 years …
3. Thus proving He certainly WILL be coming back (for Armageddon), after-which …
4. there will be the great White Throne Judgement for all who were left behind, after-which …
5. Christ will reign over all the physical earth for 1,000 years of peace, and finally …
6. He will release Satan for his own piece of justice as The Archangel Michael promptly dispatches him into hell for all eternity. Game, set, match … heaven eternal for all who made the right choice of Christ as their Lord & Savior.

Now, I would dearly love to have the benefit of someone more knowledgeable than I to toss these ideas around with, but again, we are in short supply in my area for Catholics who actually know what is in their bibles. And when I have tried to engage 2 priests and 1 nun in conversation of this kind, I got a polite reminder of the Church’s position - preterism - and a lack of any enthusiasm to engage the topic in any other light.

I am sincerely struggling to be accurate in my reading of scripture, but can only seem to find non-Catholics who know anything about this. So, if there are Catholics out there who are well-versed and conversant in these topics I’d love to hear from you.

RSVP at will …

Many thanks, brothers and sisters in Christ … and God bless you.

I’m not the most well versed but I love this topic and I’d be happy to chat with you. I would strongly recommend the book “Rapture” by David Currie. Although there are multiple layers to understanding the Apocalypse (including how it relates to the Mass), he shows how many early church fathers associated the first 19 chapters of Revelation with the destruction of the Temple and the sack of Jerusalem in the year 70. I believe this to be true as well as the amillennial position that Christ has been reigning for the “1000 years” since his ascension. And at the end of this church age he will return in glory.

I would like to disagree with you on some of your points and hear your response after that. 1) happens right before 3) which is when Christ returns. This happens last. As I mentioned, Christ is already reigning. He will not physically reign (in his visible resurrected body) as this world’s ruler before the new heavens and earth. 2) has already happened in the first century and may repeat in some way before Christ returns. If 2) repeats in the future it will probably be after 5) starts. Then 1) and 3) happen, followed by the new heavens and earth.

Peace!

 

[Fink]

I must “confess” that I am a Catholic who very much believes in the Millennial precept in the Revelation of John…

…which I feel compelled to do.

The Church SPECIFICALLY teaches against the literal millenium or any variations of it. It has to be interpreted as just a long period. As Ryan says (below), we`re in it now.

When I grew up in the '50’s I attended my parish school, taught by The Sisters of the Presentation…

By the time we approached high school, it changed to “that’s only for Protestants … all you need to know is in your (Baltimore) Catechism”.

There was a good reason for that approach, even though it was a narrow one: in the hands of the wrong person, the Bible is a very dangerous piece of literature. 30,000+ supposedly Christian denominations are proof of that.
Of course, the proper answer would have been Bible study from the Catholic perspective.

1. there clearly IS such a thing as the Rapture (being caught-up to meet Jesus in the air among the clouds) after-which …

But, only at the very end of Time.

1. the 7-year “End Times” events commence…

… Armageddon where Christ will defeat Satan and cast him (in chains) into Hell for 1,000 years …

No.

1. Thus proving He certainly WILL be coming back (for Armageddon), after-which …

No.

1. there will be the great White Throne Judgement for all who were left behind, after-which …

No. There will be a GENERAL resurrection. The “First” and “Second” resurrections have been misinterpreted.

1. Christ will reign over all the physical earth for 1,000 years of peace, and finally …

No.

1. He will release Satan for his own piece of justice as The Archangel Michael promptly dispatches him into hell for all eternity. Game, set, match … heaven eternal for all who made the right choice of Christ as their Lord & Savior.

A lot of Catholics, including this one, feel that the Dragon has already been released. Remember the extremely unpleasant mystical experience suffered by Pope Leo XIII? The Prayer to Michael the Archangel resulted from that.
Some say that`s only a myth; but…

Now…

… I got a polite reminder of the Church’s position -*** preterism ***- and a lack of any enthusiasm to engage the topic in any other light.

They`re at least partly right. Our Lord did predict the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. To the Jews, the Temple **DID **represent the Cosmos; so its destruction was, in a way, the end of the World. The Temple was the Cosmos in miniature.

The Jewish historian: Josephus, authored a manuscript titled: “The Jewish War”. He was actually in Jerusalem in the final days leading up to the fall of the city and the destruction of the Temple. The*** tribulation ***of the residents was indescribable: eg mass starvation: mothers killing their own children, cooking and eating them; eating dogs` droppings!

The Roman soldiers, brutalised by years of war and barbarity, were themselves appalled by what they witnessed after Jersulam fell! Total barbaric depravity!

Not having read a word of Josephus` work, i can go only from memory of what a particular speaker said. So: “the Abomination of Desolation” apparently was the turning of the Holy of Holies into an ammo dump by one of the warring factions WITHIN the city!

A very brief review of The Jewish War:
vexen.co.uk/books/josephus_jewishwar.html

We know that our Lord`s words can also cover the future…

I am sincerely struggling to be accurate in my reading of scripture, but can only seem to find non-Catholics who know anything about this.

Its dangerous to take notice of what they say, because their understanding of Scripture is skewed. The Church shows extreme caution/prudence; and she has good reason for being that way. Its safest to steer totally clear of Protestant, especially Fundamentalist, ideas of the future. They`re riddled with error.

So, if there are Catholics out there who are well-versed and conversant in these topics I’d love to hear from you.

RSVP at will …

Many thanks, brothers and sisters in Christ … and God bless you.

To echo Ryan, i`m not an expert.

Had to “edit” your words because of the 6,000 character limit!

I’m not the most well versed but I love this topic and I’d be happy to chat with you. I would strongly recommend the book “Rapture” by David Currie. Although there are multiple layers to understanding the Apocalypse (including how it relates to the Mass), he shows how many early church fathers associated the first 19 chapters of Revelation with the destruction of the Temple and the sack of Jerusalem in the year 70. I believe this to be true as well as the amillennial position that Christ has been reigning for the “1000 years” since his ascension. And at the end of this church age he will return in glory.

I would like to disagree with you on some of your points and hear your response after that. 1) happens right before 3) which is when Christ returns. This happens last. As I mentioned, Christ is already reigning. He will not physically reign (in his visible resurrected body) as this world’s ruler before the new heavens and earth. 2) has already happened in the first century and may repeat in some way before Christ returns. If 2) repeats in the future it will probably be after 5) starts. Then 1) and 3) happen, followed by the new heavens and earth.

Peace!

To be continued?
Ryan: what have we bitten off?

 

[Almagore]

You will find that the Catholic Church is the exception to this rule. The Church has very little doctrine related to the subject - and what She does teach is pretty much limited to personal/general judgement. Offhand, I can’t think of any Eschatological doctrine which extends beyond these concepts.

The Church has no doctrine whatsoever regarding pre/mid/post-Trib, or whatever-millenialism, or how Armageddon or the Rapture plays out. The Church has nothing to say about Gog or Magog. These are all concepts that would be unfamiliar to most Catholics.

The problem is that the Catholic Church is not at liberty to teach about things that people are interested in - She is limited by the Deposit of Faith - the Church can only teach what is revealed to Her in that Deposit. The Church can define doctrine about this, and nothing else. It seems that Our Lord did not include eschatology in that Deposit. That is not surprising, considering some other things he said regarding our ignorance of these things, which is part of God’s plan.

My own personal opinion: Nobody really cares about eschatology unless he believes the end-times are near. I’ve never met a Catholic who thinks this. I believe that humanity has many thousands of years ahead if it.

You say that the Catholic Church is limited to the Deposit of Faith and that does not include eschatology? That’s strange because I thought that the Deposit of Faith included Sacred Scripture. In Sacred Scripture, all of Mathew Chapter 24 and Luke Chapter 13 is Jesus talking about what will occur before He returns in the flesh. Jesus said that, “No man knows the day or the hour except the Father”. but that doesn’t mean that we should not “watch for the signs of the times”. Much of Mathew 24 is not only what we will see as the time for Jesus return becomes near but also what we should do when we see these things happening.

There are people who go off the deep end about the “rapture” and things like that but that does not negate Holy Scripture! By the way, I am an a Roman Catholic and love the Church but because there are some people who go to excess about something doesn’t mean the reality of the thing is not true. Many people in the Church go to excess about the Saints and treat them as Gods and Goddesses but that does mean that the Saints aren’t real.

 

[RaphaelJ]

This is great. My classmate believes in a pre-milleniarism (wrong spelling) view. However, she’s sort of scary. Not only that, she has been lending papers about “visions” that contradict Church teaching. Such as Purgatory and Blessed John Paul II in hell. How do I go against it, I wonder…

 

[Fink]

This is great. My classmate believes in a pre-milleniarism (wrong spelling) view. However, she’s sort of scary. Not only that, she has been lending papers about “visions” that contradict Church teaching. Such as Purgatory and Blessed John Paul II in hell. How do I go against it, I wonder…

This short article might help, even if it`s only you:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7724

Theres a deeper one by Fr. Robert Barron (i think); but i cant find it.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan: what have we bitten off?

Hopefully a good conversation will follow.