ESV again: moving beyond generalities

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crazzeto, I already answered that in the original post: stylistically, RSVCE is unattractive, in my own opinion, and substantively, it has several Catholic critics, imprimatur or not. (Its most prominent and pervasive fault as a reading bible is its attempted use of “inclusive language,” an enterprise that would be merely presumptuous if English had an appropriate neuter pronoun, and is positively detrimental without it, introducing number ambiguity.)
SimonDodd,

You’re confused I think, the RSV-CE does not use inclusive language at all… Not one little bit, rather I believe you are thinking of the NRSV translation of which I believe there is also a CE. The RSV is a different translation, which is almost universally loved. More over the original RSV is the basis of the ESV bible (if you do your homework), so you’ll find that whatever faults or stregths the RSV has, the ESV is built upon those. The main difference is some denominationally specific wording.
 
Kshaft, crazzeto, it’s certainly possible that I’m mixing up my alphabet soup and have the wrong translation in mind. If that is the case, my apologies. My recollection is that when I looked at it previously, RSVCE’s translation dropped leadenly off the page. I will stop by the book store later and take another look at it; if I’ve gotten mixed up, I’ll happily use it. As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m not batting for ESV here.

(Of course, it must be said that even stipulating Kshaft’s point that “well over 90% of the text is exactly the same,” 10% can make an awful lot of difference in a book of 800,000+ words. You could encode all four gospels—c.22,600 (Mt) + c.15,200 (Mk) + c.24,000 (Lk) + c.15,200 (Jn) = 77,000 <= c.9.6%—in Enigma and still be able to say that “over 90% of the text is exactly the same.”)

Nevertheless, I do think there’s some mileage in continuing to discuss ESV. A search of the archive shows that it’s a recurrent subject here, and as I said in the OP, resolution is elusive: Some people seem sure that it must be a faulty translation, yet have only one example of a fault. That discussion is worth pursuing if for no other reason than this: when debating with protestants, it helps to rely more heavily on scripture (I’m not saying that I’ve never cited an encyclical to an evangelical, but it doesn’t impress them much), and it helps, moreover, to use a translation they trust. If ESV is indeed a minefield, it helps to know where the mines are.
 
Simon,

As you say some times even small faults can in some cases lead to big problems…

For instance:

Douay:
1 Tim 3
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
ESV
15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
KJV
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, **the pillar **and ground of the truth.
ASV
15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Worthy of note, only watch tower utilizes a translation of this verse similar to the ESV. In both cases the publisher has a vested interested in disproving any idea, that there was ever any established Church Structure…

The ESV isn’t quite as bad at the ISV in so far as interjecting denominational slants, but why use a bible which has such slants to begin with? You complained about gender nutrality in the NRSV, and with good reason… Why would you also not take issue with denominationally slanted translations?
 
You charge “Catholic edition bibles are denominationally slanted”, please provide the proof. Thanks,
  • A Catholic Edition is approved by the Catholic Church
  • meaning that they have been carefully reviewed to ensure that they do not bring an inaccurate or misleading transmission of the Sacred text to the Catholic reader
  • while a Protestant version has not been through the same procedure by the Catholic Church.
 
  • A Catholic Edition is approved by the Catholic Church
  • meaning that they have been carefully reviewed to ensure that they do not bring an inaccurate or misleading transmission of the Sacred text to the Catholic reader
  • while a Protestant version has not been through the same procedure by the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church is interested in maintaining the integrety of the sacrade text, your response is no proof. Provide proof, provide examples of modified texts which don’t line up logically with source materials and other available translations as I have done with the ESV.

I’m sorry, but your reasoning is based on nothing more than nebulas distrust of the Church, it doesn’t fly.
 
I’m sorry, but your reasoning is based on nothing more than nebulas distrust of the Church, it doesn’t fly.
And your reasoning is based on nothing more than nebulous trust in nothing but the Church, which also doesn’t fly.
 
crazzeto, yes, that’s the routinely-cited fault that I mentioned in my original post. That’s the example that is always given in threads about ESV. But it is also the only example that ever seems to be given. In saying “for instance,” you are claiming that this error is an example of a broader class of errors. So is it really an instance, or is it an aberration? In a way, that’s the whole point of this thread: taking that error as granted, what other errors there are?
 
And your reasoning is based on nothing more than nebulous trust in nothing but the Church, which also doesn’t fly.
Actually as you can see from my posting, it comes from comparing texts of the bible… Protestant, Catholic, extrodenarly literal “interliniar” translations with the original Greek. You’re making a statement which can’t be backed up, even lacking the ability to read the original language.
 
crazzeto, yes, that’s the routinely-cited fault that I mentioned in my original post. That’s the example that is always given in threads about ESV. But it is also the only example that ever seems to be given. In saying “for instance,” you are claiming that this error is an example of a broader class of errors. So is it really an instance, or is it an aberration? In a way, that’s the whole point of this thread: taking that error as granted, what other errors there are?
Let me put it to you this way, if you really really want to use it go for it… But just know that as an alternative you could be using other bibles, with similar characteristics (ESV is a RSV clone with some twists) which not only have all canonical books but also lack any denomiational slant at all.

At least for my taste, I’d prefer a purer text.
 
crazzeto, I don’t want to use it—at least not as an everyday reading Bible—if it’s problematic. Whether or not it is problematic is the point at issue.

As I said above, some people seem sure that it must be a faulty translation, yet have only one example of a fault: the passage from 1 Timothy. It strikes me that there are two possibilities. Either that is the only passage in ESV that is problematic from a Catholic perspective, in which case, the argument against using it is awfully weak tea: the mistranslation of a single preposition out of tens of thousands. Or that fault is a particular instance of a broader class of mistranslations (deliberate vel non). If that is the case, as you charged, then the argument against using ESV is much stronger. So which is it?

To find out, we could start a thread seeking examples of other errors. Like, say, this one!

And in fact, the harder it is to identify specific errors, the less plausible the claim that ESV is riddled with them. We are now three pages into this thread and no one has identified any translation faults other than the one we started with. Is that less striking to you than it is to me? With all respect, you are dealing in the same generalities—it has a “denomiational [sic.] slant”; where? It’s an “[im]pure] text”; what impurities?—that have frustrated previous threads, and which I started this thread to move beyond. Can you really be satisfied in dismissing it because (1) it lacks an imprimatur, even though no one ever asked for one; (2) you have found one error in one verse of one chapter of one book of one testament; and (3) we have a vague sense that a protestant translation just must be wrong and skewed?
 
crazzeto, I don’t want to use it—at least not as an everyday reading Bible—if it’s problematic. Whether or not it is problematic is the point at issue.

As I said above, some people seem sure that it must be a faulty translation, yet have only one example of a fault: the passage from 1 Timothy. It strikes me that there are two possibilities. Either that is the only passage in ESV that is problematic from a Catholic perspective, in which case, the argument against using it is awfully weak tea: the mistranslation of a single preposition out of tens of thousands. Or that fault is a particular instance of a broader class of mistranslations (deliberate vel non). If that is the case, as you charged, then the argument against using ESV is much stronger. So which is it?

To find out, we could start a thread seeking examples of other errors. Like, say, this one!

And in fact, the harder it is to identify specific errors, the less plausible the claim that ESV is riddled with them. We are now three pages into this thread and no one has identified any translation faults other than the one we started with. Is that less striking to you than it is to me? With all respect, you are dealing in the same generalities—it has a “denomiational [sic.] slant”; where? It’s an “[im]pure] text”; what impurities?—that have frustrated previous threads, and which I started this thread to move beyond. Can you really be satisfied in dismissing it because (1) it lacks an imprimatur, even though no one ever asked for one; (2) you have found one error in one verse of one chapter of one book of one testament; and (3) we have a vague sense that a protestant translation just must be wrong and skewed?
Translations are typically good, but there are problems that are quite subtle and most of us have trouble pointing out until we read it all the way through and compare.

However, the biggest problems with the whinny protesters is not they outright change the translation for the most part, but screw up the interpretation and read into it things that are not there or are in their wishful thinking.

Take for instance when Christ said in Mathew 16 (paraphrase) “Peter, you are the rock upon which I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

This is a very authoritative statement on the true church but the protos try to say “no he means all the apostles by singling out Peter” (?) or whatever nonsense they try to come up with to degrade the central authority of the church, CONTRARY to scripture.

Also there is Luke 22 “This is my body which is given [up] for you.”
Christ does not say, ‘this is like how my body will be’, ‘this is a representation of my body’
‘this bread is like my body…’ No he said “THIS IS MY BODY…”
This is the point where many of the disciples left him, because it is a hard saying. Its not hard if you say or if it meant, “this bread is like my body, broken and giving substance” because that isn’t what he said or meant.

Then you have John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
They try to spin this into 'What Christ was trying to say… :banghead: was that through preaching the Gospel they forgive sins or retain them…" So disobeying The Lords command to preach everywhere, they would be retaining sins as opposed to delivering the Gospel and then seeing if people are repentant and having authority to baptize and absolve their sins.

Its out in left field but they couldn’t survive without it. They should work for msnbc.
 
KShaft, I can basically agree with all those points, if not necessarily with your phrasing of them. But none of them are criticisms of, or faults with, ESV’s translation of Sacred Scripture.
 
Well that was kind of my point believe it or not.

The more literal translations are actually quite good for the most part.

The agenda or perhaps better thought would be ‘spirit’ behind the translations are what I have the biggest problems with, which is why the problems come up.

This is why I stick to mostly the RSV CE, Chanoler Douay-Rheims, Jerusalem, and Original Rheims NT for the most part. The KJV is the non Catholic Version I read most, just cause it is that good. The DR and especially the ODR are a much more literal translation however. The ODR is almost interlinear.

Once again, I have a $100+ Allan ESV and It doesn’t get read 1/4 as much as my 37$ Oxford RSV-CE because it is so similar and has the higher language while remaining easy to read. Oh and Yeah its a Catholic Bible. Now if you’d like to buy my ESV Id give you a good price…

I am recommending the RSV-CE, Douay, or Jerusalem,(yes in this order) as a guy who essentially had been reading the NKJV for 15 years, and owns premium copies of KJV’s (3 one Allan, one Cambridge, and even a Local Bible pub, all in Morocco leather) an Allan ESV, and a Cambridge goatskin NASB Pitt Minion.
 
Perhaps you have forgotten St. Augustine’s maxim: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas. This specific example appears to be in the category of “doubtful” at best.
Here’s a little factoid about this quote: Did Augustine Say This?

I only mention this because Augustine is so loved by our Reformed brothers and sisters, that I want to make sure we get him right. 🙂 Sorry if that was annoying. :o

The late Father Neuhaus referred to this translation as the “quite splendid English Standard Version” (Bible Babel).

As I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t see a problem with their translation of 1 Timothy 3:15.

But I do find major fault with the ESV’s translation of Ephesians 4:9.

“‘When He ascended on high He led a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.’ (In saying, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean but that He had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?”

This is how the passage reads in the 2007 edition of the ESV (the 2001 edition is fine). At the end of the verse, they make “the earth” into a restatement of what Paul meant by “the lower regions.” This translation is problematic and you’ll notice that most translations will say something like “the lower regions of the earth.” The reason why this new translation is problematic is twofold.

(1) In the Greek, “the lower regions” is in the accusative case and “the earth” is in the genitive. In Greek, the genitive is most commonly used to convey possession so you’ll usually see translations say, for example, “of God” or “God’s” where the genitive is used for God, etc. And so, grammatically speaking, it seems clumsy to take these two phrases in different cases as simple restatements of each other. Most naturally, it should read “the earth’s lower regions” or “the lower regions of the earth.” Wayne Grudem suggests that the wording should be rendered in the manner chosen by the 2007 ESV because it is “a genitive of apposition.” He gives “the city of Chicago” as an example in his Systematic Theology.

(2) Verse 10 goes on to say that “He Who descended is the One Who also ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.” And so, if we have “the lower parts” = “the earth,” as the ESV has it in verse 9, then we lose the parallelism that Paul is trying to establish by comparing the ascent with the descent and saying He ascended far above all the heavens. In the ESV translation, Jesus still goes above all the heavens, but He now only goes to the earth, rather than far below the earth, all the way to the heart of the earth (cf. Mathew 12:40), to its lower regions. And so by this translation He no longer filled “all things” by His ascending and descending like verse 10 tells us He did.

We also have to compare this verse with how Paul talks about the earth in his other letters. In Philippians he says that “God has highly exalted [Jesus] and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every name, so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Phil 2:9-11). And in Romans 10:6-7 he says:

“But the righteousness based on faith says, ‘Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘ “Who will descend into the abyss?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

Since Paul explicitly mentions (1) a location “under the earth,” and (2) Christ having descended into “the abyss” when He died, the text in Ephesians, again, should most definitely read, “the lower regions of the earth.”

In Job, Zophar asks, “Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know?” (11:7-8) The implication to his questions is that there is nothing higher than heaven nor deeper than Sheol in all God’s creation. When we compare this thought with the language of Paul where he talks about Jesus ascending far above all the heavens and descending into the lower regions of the earth “that He might fill all things” (Eph 4:10), it is difficult to escape the conclusion that he has Sheol in mind when he mentions “the lower regions of the earth.”

The real reason why the ESV translates Ephesians 4:9 the way that it does is that the translators deny Christ’s descent into hell. 😦 I was really disappointed to see the 2007 edition incorporate this highly theologically driven translation of this verse.

Here is a list of changes that were made to the 2007 edition.

May the LORD be with you!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
I accept the authority of the Catholic Church. I do not accept the authority of St. Paul over the authority of the Catholic Church. Also, I do not accept the Bible as a higher authority over the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition.
I just want to make sure that our non Catholic brothers and sisters understand that JM3 is not saying that the Magisterium is above Paul or above the Word of God. We do not think this way. We do not oppose Paul or Sacred Scripture to the Magisterium. Of course we accord the highest authority to Paul and the rest of the apostles. The apostles are the foundation of the Magisterium and the bishops received their authority from them. And this teaching authority is not above, but serves the Word of God (cf. , 10Dei Verbum).

I think JM3’s general point was simply that these authorities will not contradict each other and we shouldn’t interpret them in such a way as to throw them into such contradiction.

Have a blessed day, JM3!

In Christ,
Pete
 
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