Eternal Creation Ex Nihilo vs Modern Cosmology

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Way to go Anselm. Dualing Physicists is good reading!

But whatever the argument, God created the universe either in time or eternally. That it caused or could cause its own existence is impossible ( as your references explain )…

Linus2nd
 
Hey, J. K., Bahman, Inocente and everyone else. Aristotle and Aquinas are apparently alive and well at Oxford, Trinity College. Quite a good snap shot of the kind of people taking up the two greatest philosophers who ever lived and who are showing their relevance is alive an well. youtube.com/watch?v=mOHx9gKWH6M&list=UUcw1IwzRhh9jJtGwF3X-CQg

You will find the question and answer period most interesting.
The caliber of the audience is outstanding. Exactly what you would expect at Trinity.

Linus2nd
 
I do in fact think that there could exist a separate world of immaterial ideas that are actual ground of reality and we could be cognitively closed to it. Think of duality of mind and body which is not resolvable under any interpretation. The Plato’s allegory can only be excluded if we could find a set of consistent concepts that can explain objective reality completely yet it cannot completely be disproved.
Until you have a theory that could in principle explain reality, you don’t even have a way to judge whether Plato’s world of ideas is excludable or not. Aristotle demonstrated that Plato’s theory was infirm precisely because it destroys knowledge of reality. How? It begins with the premise that what we apprehend is not reality.
Philosophy doesn’t end up. We just have to be careful of our claim whether the subject of study is reality, its reflection, just a part of it, etc. How could be so sure that what we observe is reality?
The impossibility of the contrary. There must be some way in the first instance to know reality in order to judge whether what we are studying is a mere reflection of reality or just a part of reality. It is not possible to compare “reality” to anything else unless you first have some knowledge of what reality is!
Anomaly is not enemy of reality. The existence of anomaly just states that the current interpretation is not correct.
The current interpretation of what? It could only be reality. One doesn’t have any basis to compare anomalies unless there is first some knowledge of reality.
It does if we accept that there does not exist two realities since it cannot exist two different theories which are anomaly free and they could explain objective reality well unless there exist a unique map between two theories.
This is clearly incorrect. I can posit a logically possible world where God directly and proximately causes all of our sensory experience that is purely mental. That theory would account for all of the observations your theory does, yet nowise uniquely map your theory.
This means that there exist not a theory with finite number of concept which is anomaly free and can explain the subject matter well.
What I mean is that knowledge of being (reality) cannot ultimately be exhausted by the human mind. Of course, in order to defend this thesis I would have to make some demonstration that this proposition is true; that it does correspond to the way things really are. You would have to do the same for your truth claim.
The fact that world of ideas is infinite indicates that there could exist a theory which could explain objective reality well within a framework if and only if there exists one unresolvable anomaly.
Except that your claim to an infinite world of ideas as “fact” is itself a claim to knowledge of reality; as is your claim that it explains objective reality well only if there exists one anomaly. Without demonstration, it only constitutes belief, not knowledge.
I think I was very clear with my argument. Suppose that one find a physical theory which explains the objective reality well.
And I believe I was clear with mine. One has to begin with how reality can be known before any physical theory can be built to explain it.
This theory in principle is a framework that explains the ultimate reality of things. There is no room left for metaphysics to claim that they could find a theory which can explain objective reality well too and if there is then there exist a unique map between physical theory and metaphysical theory. This however doesn’t mean that the type of anomalies are similar.
What is ironic about your presentation is that it relies upon a variety of metaphysical commitments to disprove metaphysics. For example, your deduction that two simultaneous realities cannot exist. I completely agree with the conclusion, but it is ultimately drawn from a metaphysical abstraction of reality - the law of identity.

By the way, I’m not asserting that philosophy/metaphysics can ever completely explain reality. Secondary causes and changeable being, especially mathematical descriptions of the same, are investigated (very successfully) by the specialized sciences. That obviously includes physics. As Stanley Jaki, Anthony Rizzi, Maritain and others have pointed out though, physics by necessity relies upon metaphysical principles - the law of identity being one of them.
 
how can Aquinas believe in the reasonable possibility, apart from faith, of an eternal universe and yet believe that creation from nothing can be proved from philosophy?
 
how can Aquinas believe in the reasonable possibility, apart from faith, of an eternal universe and yet believe that creation from nothing can be proved from philosophy?
He didn’t believe in the reasonable possibility of an eternal universe; he just didn’t believe a finite universe could be demonstrated by reason and was held de fidei. Whether or not this position is actually true was controversial then, and appears to be no less now.

In regards to his position on Creatio ex nihilo; the first thing you need to do is distinguish your senses of creation. There is first the creation of the universe “in the beginning”, which is what creation believes we hold as an article of faith, whilst there is a second sense. As creation is the bestowal of being on non-being, the conservation in being of all that exists can properly be termed creation.

I would go into more detail, but it’s very late and it is time for me to get some sleep.
 
how can Aquinas believe in the reasonable possibility, apart from faith, of an eternal universe and yet believe that creation from nothing can be proved from philosophy?
I believe, without going into the reasoning in detail, that two notions are involved:
  1. God is outside of time, being eternal, so that an object 14 billion years in the past for us, or in the present for us, or 30 seconds in the future for us are all the same to God–God apprehends a “block universe”;
  2. creation is *creation continua * and also ex nihilo
See my post Creation ex Nihilo: theology versus (?) physics
 
He didn’t believe in the reasonable possibility of an eternal universe; he just didn’t believe a finite universe could be demonstrated by reason and was held de fidei. Whether or not this position is actually true was controversial then, and appears to be no less now.

In regards to his position on Creatio ex nihilo; the first thing you need to do is distinguish your senses of creation. There is first the creation of the universe “in the beginning”, which is what creation believes we hold as an article of faith, whilst there is a second sense. As creation is the bestowal of being on non-being, the conservation in being of all that exists can properly be termed creation.

I would go into more detail, but it’s very late and it is time for me to get some sleep.
👍 Good show! You’ve put it well and succinctly!
And now I have to go back to bed also.🙂
 
Hey, J. K., Bahman, Inocente and everyone else. Aristotle and Aquinas are apparently alive and well at Oxford, Trinity College. Quite a good snap shot of the kind of people taking up the two greatest philosophers who ever lived and who are showing their relevance is alive an well. youtube.com/watch?v=mOHx9gKWH6M&list=UUcw1IwzRhh9jJtGwF3X-CQg

You will find the question and answer period most interesting.
The caliber of the audience is outstanding. Exactly what you would expect at Trinity.
I’ve replied on Skeptic’s thread re this -
inocente said:
I had watched this before when the view count was even smaller, and felt he was pushing his idea well beyond breaking point. It seemed the audience thought the same as in the Q&A they were most civilized in how they tore him to pieces. Did Aristotle actually mean math when he said form? Em, well, no, probably not. Etc.

There are hundreds of lectures of this kind. On the same YouTube page you’ll find Lee Smolin talking about the bee in his particular bonnet. He might deem Pinsent as yet another reductionist time denier.
btw most interesting that you’re fine with Pinsent equating math to reality and with him saying light is more fundamental than space and time, but not OK when anyone else says it. 😃
 
I’ve replied on Skeptic’s thread re this -

btw most interesting that you’re fine with Pinsent equating math to reality and with him saying light is more fundamental than space and time, but not OK when anyone else says it. 😃
First of all, he did not equate math to reality. Secondly, I don’t recall hearing him say that light was more fundamental than space and time. But if he did, wouldn’t that be true in light of his topic which was a discussion on " What is matter? " Light clearly is a form of matter, while space and time are platforms in which light operates, the " box " he mentions. Even so, there was little if anything in the presentation stated as an absolute fact. It was merely a discussion. And if you think the question and answer period was an event in which his audience " destroyed him, " you certainly weren’t watching the same video I watched. As I recall, no one challenged anything he said. Quite the opposite. And most of the questions were merely requests for further elaboration on his thought.

But I realize that your views are, are…are, well, rather insular, nothing can be admitted which does not agree with your particular parochial world view, or which might threaten it.

Linus2nd.
 
First of all, he did not equate math to reality. Secondly, I don’t recall hearing him say that light was more fundamental than space and time. But if he did, wouldn’t that be true in light of his topic which was a discussion on " What is matter? " Light clearly is a form of matter, while space and time are platforms in which light operates, the " box " he mentions.
In the Q&A he talks about the difference between materialism and physicalism (btw he disagrees with you, he says light clearly is not matter) then at roughly 68 minutes he agrees with Einstein that light is more fundamental than space and time.

Shortly after, he says that light experiences no time and he regularly uses that fact to counter the Kalem Cosmological Argument.

btw he says he’s a fan of Lee Smolin, and I got the impression that like Smolin he tries not to put physics in a box (i.e. tries not to be reductionist), just as he wouldn’t put God in a box.
  • As I recall, no one challenged anything he said. Quite the opposite. And most of the questions were merely requests for further elaboration on his thought.
But I realize that your views are, are…are, well, rather insular, nothing can be admitted which does not agree with your particular parochial world view, or which might threaten it.*
Yet again with the personal abuse. You don’t seem to be able to stop yourself. Don’t know why you get so aroused, we’re only have a conversation.

Whatever. :coffeeread:

I liked a lot of his presentation. He also thinks the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. He also thinks that trying to reduce the universe to one big equation is silly. And so on.

But I think he well overcooked it, he stretched his metaphor well beyond breaking point, and the audience did too.
 
=inocente;12188866]In the Q&A he talks about the difference between materialism and physicalism (btw he disagrees with you, he says light clearly is not matter) then at roughly 68 minutes he agrees with Einstein that light is more fundamental than space and time.
Well yes, I think he described " physicalism " as roughly the same as materialism, perhaps more nuanced. Yes, if he said light is not matter I would disagree with him. I would agree with Einstein that light is more fundamental, but probably for different reasons, because I regard space and time as the substratum in which light is manifested, the necessary reality which makes it possible for light to both exist and to be detected by us.
Shortly after, he says that light experiences no time and he regularly uses that fact to counter the Kalem Cosmological Argument.
I’m no fan of the Kalem argument, following Aquina’s objection to it. But I disagree with him that light experiences no time. Everything in the universe exists in ontological space and experiences time. Without these two realities we would know nothing about light, mass or any other physical property or any physical entity.
btw he says he’s a fan of Lee Smolin, and I got the impression that like Smolin he tries not to put physics in a box (i.e. tries not to be reductionist), just as he wouldn’t put God in a box.
Don’t know anything about Smolin. But God is absolutely other that the universe, so he would not be in the " box " which contains the universe.
Yet again with the personal abuse. You don’t seem to be able to stop yourself. Don’t know why you get so aroused, we’re only have a conversation.
No abuse, just recognizing the general content and direction of your responses. Your responses , when discussing physics, science, and philosophy, are unusual for a person of Faith.

Whatever. :coffeeread:
I liked a lot of his presentation. He also thinks the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. He also thinks that trying to reduce the universe to one big equation is silly. And so on.
Yes, I think his discussion was very difficult to understand and I wouldn’t pretend to understand it all. The important thing for me was he was trying to point out that Aristotle and Aquinas are not passe’ even to modern physics, which was definitely seconded by at least three responders. Trinity college at Oxford is definitely at the head of the Aristotilean/Thomistic revival. Much like the Institute of Midieval Studies in Montreal.
But I think he well overcooked it, he stretched his metaphor well beyond breaking point, and the audience did too.
Yes, he stretched it and I do think he was a bit beyond the threshold of understanding held by the audience, as intelligent as they obviously were.

His problem was the same as that of many super intelligent and super educated people, it was difficult for him to reach down to the level of the people he addressed. Nevertheless, I appreciated his effort.

BTW he gives some excellent spiritual sermons and talks.

I’m glad you took the time to watch, I appreciate that.

Linus2nd
 
He didn’t believe in the reasonable possibility of an eternal universe; he just didn’t believe a finite universe could be demonstrated by reason and was held de fidei. Whether or not this position is actually true was controversial then, and appears to be no less now.

In regards to his position on Creatio ex nihilo; the first thing you need to do is distinguish your senses of creation. There is first the creation of the universe “in the beginning”, which is what creation believes we hold as an article of faith, whilst there is a second sense. As creation is the bestowal of being on non-being, the conservation in being of all that exists can properly be termed creation.

I would go into more detail, but it’s very late and it is time for me to get some sleep.
I wish you could go into more detail if you have time today. Does Aquinas believe you can PROVE from reason that creation came from nothing?
 
I wish you could go into more detail if you have time today. Does Aquinas believe you can PROVE from reason that creation came from nothing?
Yes, that is, he believed that from reason it can be proven that creation is out of nothing. He also believed it can be proven from reason that all things that potentially do not have being, everything that is contingent, must have been created. God is pure act and cannot potentially have non-being, so he is not one of those things.

The point that Linus brought up is that Aquinas didn’t necessarily believe that temporal creation can be proven through philosophy/reason alone. He left open the possibility of an eternal created universe; one that had no temporal beginning. Yet the universe would still need a cause of its existence, even if that cause is not in the temporal order. Aquinas believed that the universe had a temporal beginning, but he based that primarily on theology rather than philosophy.
 
I wish you could go into more detail if you have time today. Does Aquinas believe you can PROVE from reason that creation came from nothing?
Go back and read posts # 1 & 5. Here is the pertinent link:

On the contrary it is said (Rom. xi, 36): From him and by him and in him are all things.

I answer that the ancients in their investigations of nature proceeded in accordance with the order of human knowledge. Wherefore as human knowledge reaches the intellect by beginning with the senses, the early philosophers were intent on the domain of the senses, and thence by degrees reached the realm of the intellect. And seeing that accidental forms are in themselves objects of sense, whereas substantial forms are not, the early philosophers said that all forms are accidental, and that matter alone is a substance. And because substance suffices to cause accidents that result from the substantial elements, the early philosophers held that there is no other cause besides matter, and that matter is the cause of whatever we observe in the sensible world: and consequently they were forced to state that matter itself has no cause, and to deny absolutely the existence of an efficient cause. The later philosophers, however, began to take some notice of substantial forms: yet they did not attain to the knowledge of universals, and they were wholly intent on the observation of special forms; and so they posited indeed certain active causes, not such as give being to things in their universality, but which transmute matter to this or that form: these causes they called intelligence, attraction and repulsion, which they held responsible for adhesion and separation. Wherefore according to them qot all beings came from an efficient cause, and matter was in existence before any efficient cause came into action. Subsequent to these the philosophers as Plato, Aristotle and their disciples, attained to the study of universal being: and hence they alone posited a universal cause of things, from which all others came into being, as Augustine states (De Civ. Dei viii, 4). This is in agreement with the Catholic Faith; and may be proved by the three arguments that follow.

First, if in a number of things we find something that is common to all, we must conclude that this something was the effect of some one cause: for it is not possible that to each one by reason of itself this common something belong, since each one by itself is different from the others: and diversity of causes produces a diversity of effects. Seeing then that being is found to be common to all things, which are by themselves distinct from one another, it follows of necessity that they must come into being not by themselves, but by the action of some cause. Seemingly this is Plato’s argument, since he required every multitude to be preceded by unity not only as regards number but also in reality. The second argument is that whenever something is found to be in several things by participation in various degrees, it must be derived by those in which it exists imperfectly from that one in which it exists most perfectly: because where there are positive degrees of a thing so that we ascribe it to this one more and to that one less, this is in reference to one thing to which they approach, one nearer than another: for if each one were of itself competent to have it, there would be no reason why one should have it more than another. Thus fire, which is the extreme of heat, is the cause of heat in all things hot. Now there is one being most perfect and most true: which follows from the fact that there is a mover altogether immovable and absolutely perfect, as philosophers have proved. Consequently all other less perfect beings must needs derive being therefrom. This is the argument of the Philosopher (Metaph. ii, I).

The third argument is based on the principle that whatsoever is through another is to be reduced to that which is of itself. Wherefore if there were a per se heat, it would be the cause of all hot things, that have heat by way of participation. Now there is a being that is its own being: and this follows from the fact that there must needs be a being that is pure act and wherein there is no composition. Hence from that one being all other beings that are not their own being, but have being by participation, must needs proceed. This is the argument of Avicenna (in Metaph. viii, 6; ix, 8). Thus reason proves and faith holds that all things are created by God,

dhspriory.org/thomas/english/QDdePotentia.htm#3:5 Read the objections and Aquinas’ answers too. I omitted them because of length.

Linus2nd
 
If you’re saying that there is no observational evidence that the electron is composed of quarks, I believe you’re mistaken. Aren’t there SLAC scattering experiments that show the electron is a compound particle (I can’t find a URL ref immediately)?
Electron is not made of anything at least within standard model which is the most profound model which human has ever obtained. Electron is assumed to be a vibrational mode of string withing string theory but we don’t have a solid string theory which could gives all particles well.
Code:
 And there are so many different landscapes/formulations of M-theory that I'm not sure the inaccessibility of energies to verify/falsify theories is really a keystone of criticism against it.   Again, I urge you if you have not already done so to read Peter Woit's "Not Even Wrong".
One of the main problem of string theory is that it cannot provide the observable particles well. There is a scale of energy so called string scale at which strings become observable.
 
Yes, that is, he believed that from reason it can be proven that creation is out of nothing. He also believed it can be proven from reason that all things that potentially do not have being, everything that is contingent, must have been created. God is pure act and cannot potentially have non-being, so he is not one of those things.

The point that Linus brought up is that Aquinas didn’t necessarily believe that temporal creation can be proven through philosophy/reason alone. He left open the possibility of an eternal created universe; one that had no temporal beginning. Yet the universe would still need a cause of its existence, even if that cause is not in the temporal order. Aquinas believed that the universe had a temporal beginning, but he based that primarily on theology rather than philosophy.
Than why does the article say that Bonaventure “unlike Aquinas, thinks that since creatures are temporal they need a maintenance in being, called conservation”. This doesn’t all fit together. If it can be reasonable to assume that the world is eternal, how can it be from nothing unless that means conservation from nothing?
 
Than why does the article say that Bonaventure “unlike Aquinas, thinks that since creatures are temporal they need a maintenance in being, called conservation”. This doesn’t all fit together. If it can be reasonable to assume that the world is eternal, how can it be from nothing unless that means conservation from nothing?
I don’t know about Bonaventure but Thomas would certainly say that creatures are temporal and that they required God’s direct Concurrance or act of conservation to maintain their existence. More properly he would say they need God’s continual Concurrance on account of their contingent nature.

Linus2nd
 
Than why does the article say that Bonaventure “unlike Aquinas, thinks that since creatures are temporal they need a maintenance in being, called conservation”. This doesn’t all fit together. If it can be reasonable to assume that the world is eternal, how can it be from nothing unless that means conservation from nothing?
I’ll read that article; but the big difference between Aquinas and Bonaventure is that Bonaventure accepted the Kalam Cosmological Argument as sound. This was as Bonaventure held that an infinite past-time is inherently absurd, and therefore necessarily* began in a finite past-time. Whether his argument to said conclusion is sound, however, is another question; one that I haven’t done the research to be able to answer.
  • Very few presentations of the Kalam argument are demonstrative in modern apologetics, and so fail to reach certainty. Although there has been much argument in books I am not yet ready to read which would yield a demonstrative conclusion which gives certainty.
 
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