Eternal Existence violates the freedom of the will?

[holy_wood]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

 

[ckempston]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

This person is just misdefining free will. Free will is not carte blanche to do whatever you please, such as something nonsensical like turning yourself into a bird, or something that violates divine, or man-made law, such as murder yet be free from consequnces. There’s a difference between having the moral agency to choose good over evil in a certain circumstance (which is all free will really is), and the inability to choose whatever nonsense one can imagine. While this person may seem to have scored some kind of point with his/her argument, it’s really a load of nonsense. Your definitions of “free will” are completely different, which is where the problem is coming from. If you can’t agree on the definition of the terms in your argument, you’re never going to get anywhere.

However, that’s all really a moot point, since Catholic doctrine is wrong, and Hell is not eternal. The only reason people think Hell is eternal is because of bad translating and it’s easier to control the masses with the threat of eternal damnation. I personally hold to either annihilation of the damned or universal restoration (the former of which is easiest to support Biblically, the latter less so, but neither are nonsensical like eternal punishment, which contradicts so many scriptures it’s not even funny, along with any sense of Justice). Hell is bad enough without dreaming up neverending punishments that have no support in the Scriptures.

 

[Speramus]

Could this person just be posturing? A deliberate choice for non-existence over eternal happiness with God seems quite bizarre, even devilish, if real.

Your respondent doesn’t have that choice available, anyway. He has an immortal soul, and it is the nature of immortal souls to continue existing through eternity. He can wish all he wants that he had been created otherwise, but that will not change the type of creature he is.

Given the type of creature he is, he *will *die and come face to face with God. Whether that meeting is joyful or miserable is up to him. It sounds like he is closing his mind to God, which is not a promising start.

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

 

[DCNBILL]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

Since they are admitting that they are a created being, thus implying the Creator God, you may want to point out that the free will that God so generously gives us is to choose Him or not to choose Him. All is dependant and gift from the Creator.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

The first fallacy of the argument lies in the belief that human beings do not desire heaven. Everybody wants heaven until they realize what it entails. They want heaven; but they want it with out the hang ups of christian responsibility. They want pleasure and fulfillment without moral law. The problem is, heaven can only exist within the objective context of moral responsibility. For somebody to say that they don’t what to live morally only presents the fact that they are selfish; it says nothing about whether or not it was good for God to create us. If objective morality exists, then it follows that moral law is an expression of reality. Thus anything that comes into existence is bound by the moral truth that we ought to act for the greater good. Thus the fact the some people don’t want to be good has no bearing on Gods responsibility as our creator, since Gods moral responsibility is only meaningful in relation to that existential “ought”.

Human beings, insofar as they sin, are irrational. Rebellion against God has always been about authority. We want heaven, but we want it according to our will, rather than Gods. We want to be our own God in so far as we want to determine the value of something according to our will. We want to create our own destiny. This is the price of freewill. But it is in our nature to desire heaven; and God created us to be like that. The fact that somebody does not desire good as Christians define it, does not change the fact that all human beings want that which is an expression of good, such as family love, security, community value, unity, comfort, peace, spiritual and meaningful fulfillment, including *existential longevity in those good things *(eternal heaven). Even a complete lunatic wants his or her voice to be heard and valued, even though they may express that desire through some evil act.

Anybody who tells you different is a liar.

 

[slywakka250]

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

Exactly! This is a very critical question for me, and I completely agree with this concern.

Could this person just be posturing? A deliberate choice for non-existence over eternal happiness with God seems quite bizarre, even devilish, if real.

No its not bizarre at all. The choice is more like this. Its a choice between non-existence on one hand, which assures you a very blissful state, in that you won’t even be around to be concerned about the state of yourself, and you will rest in peace, like going to sleep, and just never waking up.

Your other choice is not eternal happiness with God, but the possibility of happiness with God. You must take what to me is a horrifying gamble; to gain this great prize, you must risk an eternal hell of untold suffering and torture. You must take the chance, and you do not know the odds. You do not know how many people actually make it to heaven.

In my opinion, if even one person makes it to hell, I would very much prefer non-existence,

the reason for this is because I am certain that no one, not even the devil himself, can honestly say they are happy for all eternity to be living in torment. I always hear that people “choose hell for themselves.” well maybe they do, but seriously, once they get there for a few billion years, no matter how much they hated God in their earthly lives, will they not wish that they had been saved? There’s that example of the rich man in scripture, he wants out right away, and to warn his brother!! The point here is that if we knew what hell was in all its reality and horror, we would never choose it!

Hell is the worst thing possible that can happen to a human person. Scripture tells us to fear above all the second death, and him who can cast the soul into hell, not what only harms the body.

God himself tells us, that he wants no one in hell, but all to come to him. This is why I know hell is bad, and no one truly likes being there.

But nonetheless, it seems like people are there anyway! oh how they must regret their sins!! They never imagined the fate that would befall them, as they enjoyed their life of sin. They may have tried like many of us to live their faith quite devoutly, but in the end they just didn’t make the cut. God had to draw the line somewhere. just what level of holiness he requires we don’t know.

I don’t know if I’ll make the cut either, and I wish MORE than anything, to avoid this decision, this great mystery, this great gamble, and horror. What a joy to take the route of non-existence, what happiness to have never existed. Or to have the assurance of annihilation.

That God makes us assume a risk so terrible ( and so great, calling it his greatest gift to us, or free will and our ability to love) , is supremely unjust. He forces us to make a response, we can not opt out, as much as I want too. I never asked to be created, and I fear I spend eternity in hell angry at the God who would do this to me. When ever I go to pray nowadays, this is all I can say to God, “why did you do this to me God, why did you ever create me, and allow for the possibility of hell??” It makes it so I just want to pretend I don’t believe in God, and live life from there. I haven’t been able to pray for months now because of this issue, and I really want to get over this, but I keep falling further and further from God because of precisely this issue.

Furthermore, if I do choose to “accept God” and live for him in all things, I may be happy and find my way to heaven because I “accepted God,” but I simply cannot accept that some people accept God’s plan and others don’t. because if I DO choose to accept God, that means there is something “better” about me than anyone who doesn’t, you might say I’m more holy, or a more morally responsible person, even if this is all the result of Grace anyway and not really “me”, it really does come down to OUR free choices made all on our own that determine our eternal destiny. I simply cannot accept that I might make better choices than someone else, resulting in such a dramatically different final outcome. its absurd. I refuse to accept that I have the possibility of being better than anyone else in anyway whatsoever (heaven vs hell). I think we are all unique, and special, and even those who do great evils, it is simply part of the human condition, and not a product of individual moral culpability.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

The choice is more like this. Its a choice between non-existence on one hand, which assures you a very blissful state.

How can nothing be a blissful state? The word is completely meaningless in relation to nothing. A being can only be meaningfully blissful in so far as such a being exists to experience bliss.

God created people because it is morally good for people to experience heaven; it is good for God to share heaven.

You will probably ask why it is the case then that we are not yet entitled to heaven. To that i give you the reply of “freewill”.

 

[slywakka250]

How can nothing be a blissful state? The word is completely meaningless in relation to nothing. A being can only be meaningfully blissful in so far as such a being exists to experience bliss.

From my perspective now, and that’s what matters, because now is where I am making my moral decisions, non-existence or annihilation appear to be a better alternative to a painful eternal existence in hell. do you disagree?

And I don’t think hell is better based simply on the observation that existence is better than non-existence, like how the devil and the damned glorify God if only by their existence as created by God. This existential goodness means nothing to me, when I am considering what I want my eternal state to be, and as I make choices here on earth now. And as things stand now, I would prefer to not take the risk of hell, and to accept non-existence. can you really say that non-existence would be a painful experience from MY Perspective, given that I won’t be existing to be concerned with the state of myself?? of course not. sure blisfull is the wrong word, the point is that I’m making a comparison to eternal hell, its not hard to beat the condition in hell!!

indeed this hell is not going to be fun, which God has even held out to me as a possibility on every page of scripture. why did God allow me to be born to face this challenge, and noble it might be, I just don’t buy into it!! and I perhaps accept my fate in hell because of my refusal. how depressing…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

From my perspective now, and that’s what matters, because now is where I am making my moral decisions, non-existence or annihilation appear to be a better alternative to a painful eternal existence in hell. do you disagree?

Annihilation would contradict Gods existence, for the simple fact that God is existence and Gods being is moral goodness. Being is good. Thus to say that it would be morally “good” to cease to exist is like trying to make a square triangle.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

indeed this hell is not going to be fun, which God has even held out to me as a possibility on every page of scripture. why did God allow me to be born to face this challenge, and noble it might be, I just don’t buy into it!! and I perhaps accept my fate in hell because of my refusal. how depressing…

If you really love good with all your heart then you will not go to hell.

 

[Speramus]

Your other choice is not eternal happiness with God, but the possibility of happiness with God. You must take what to me is a horrifying gamble; to gain this great prize, you must risk an eternal hell of untold suffering and torture. You must take the chance, and you do not know the odds. You do not know how many people actually make it to heaven.

Your concern is more reasonable, but in the original post, “they preferred neither Heaven or Hell”, and wanted to be able to “reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be”. I can understand preferring annihilation to damnation, or even to the risk of damnation, but preferring non-existence to to eternal happiness and holiness and the fulfillment of all desire is demented.

In my opinion, if even one person makes it to hell, I would very much prefer non-existence, … I simply cannot accept that I might make better choices than someone else, resulting in such a dramatically different final outcome. its absurd. I refuse to accept that I have the possibility of being better than anyone else in anyway whatsoever. its absurd.

Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who managed to turn humility into a vice. Sorry, but you aren’t even close to being the worst person on the planet.

God made you – He made us – to find eternal peace and joy in Him. You’re having difficulties now because you are stuck in the misunderstanding that God is cutting people off at some arbitrary “level of holiness”, and tossing those who don’t make the cut into hell for a billion years of torture, for a start.

IMHO, in this life, you either become the sort of person who can rejoice in the love of God, or you don’t. Either way, you’re going to meet God at the end of your days. I may be mistaken, but I think we’ll meet Him in timeless eternity. If you hate Him when you meet Him, you won’t be able to say later, “Well, I’d really prefer heaven to hell after all”, because there is no “later” in eternity.

God is not capricious or unjust. Look at what he demands of us. He wants us to become kind, forbearing, forgiving. These are not the arbitrary demands of a cruel god. This is the law of love from God Who is Love. You were made for life, not for destruction. Turn away from dark thoughts.

 

[catharina]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

Really too stupid for words.
If they can find oblivion, they can choose it.
Otherwise they have to recognize that GOD has the power.
That’s a really SIMPLE fact.

 

[JohnDamian]

One may by intellection think or feel that Heaven is a bad or undesirable thing; but the natural desire of the soul realises that it is a good thing; regardless of our false thought.

 

[slywakka250]

Annihilation would contradict Gods existence, for the simple fact that God is existence and Gods being is moral goodness. Being is good. Thus to say that it would be morally “good” to cease to exist is like trying to make a square triangle.

I understand this point, and I mentioned in my post above that this is meaningless to me. who cares if existence is better than non-existence if I’m suffering in hell?? Furthermore, if “anniliation would contradict God’s existence” does this mean that God’s goodness somehow depends on my existence?? Was my creation neccessary in God’s plan?

…you are stuck in the misunderstanding that God is cutting people off at some arbitrary “level of holiness”, and tossing those who don’t make the cut into hell for a billion years of torture, for a start.

How exactly is he not doing precisely this? Those who reject God, by not reaching a (“level of holiness,” union with God, level of charity, state of Grace, free from mortal sin, etc) are indeed cut off. He MUST draw the line somewhere if he is going to make judgements about who’s in and who’s out. See 1 Cor 4:4 KJV “For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.” Paul awaits the judgement of God to see if he will “make the cut.”

 

[catharina]

He MUST draw the line somewhere if he is going to make judgements about who’s in and who’s out. See 1 Cor 4:4 KJV “For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.” Paul awaits the judgement of God to see if he will “make the cut.”

How wise of Paul — and he made the cut.

 

[Luke_K]

So I was debating the coherence of the Christian doctrine of Hell with somebody and they threw a curve ball at me.

Essentially they said that since they never asked to be created (how could they?) then it is a violation of their freedom of choice to be forced to continue to exist if they preferred neither Heaven or Hell.

I must say I didn’t know how to respond. It does seem to be a valid point. Hell is eternal separation from God and Heaven, eternal communion. But why are humans souls denied the choice of oblivion?

Either serve in Heaven or be tormented in Hell. Why can’t one reject eternal happiness & eternal misery by simply choosing to cease to be?

Well it may not be a satisfying answer, but the philosophical answer is that God’s will is eternal, so once he creates something, there is no un-creating it. Ever.

Nevertheless, this is a very profound question. Why did God create us at all? Wouldn’t it have been better if God created no one so no evil ever existed and there was no possibility of anyone suffering for eternity? I have concluded that it is unanswerable with human reason.

We should still be joyful however that we have the opportunity to enjoy blissful union with God for eternity. It really isn’t that hard to get there, either. Just be baptized, receive the sacraments, and trust in Jesus’ infinite mercy.

 

[catharina]

Well it may not be a satisfying answer, but the philosophical answer is that God’s will is eternal, so once he creates something, there is no un-creating it. Ever.

Nevertheless, this is a very profound question. Why did God create us at all? Wouldn’t it have been better if God created no one so no evil ever existed and there was no possibility of anyone suffering for eternity? I have concluded that it is unanswerable with human reason.

We should still be joyful however that we have the opportunity to enjoy blissful union with God for eternity. It really isn’t that hard to get there, either. Just be baptized, receive the sacraments, and trust in Jesus’ infinite mercy.

**Easily explained to first-graders in the 1950s when I was one:

“God made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world
and to be happy with Him in heaven.”

From the Balitmore Catechism.
We were required to memorize it.**

 

[Luke_K]

**Easily explained to first-graders in the 1950s when I was one:

“God made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world
and to be happy with Him in heaven.”

From the Balitmore Catechism.
We were required to memorize it.**

That is the purpose of our existence, not the reason God created versus not creating.

 

[Speramus]

…you are stuck in the misunderstanding that God is cutting people off at some arbitrary “level of holiness”, and tossing those who don’t make the cut into hell for a billion years of torture, for a start.

I object to the notion that God’s judgment is arbitrary, to the notion that he is sending people to heaven or hell who could have justly been sent to the other place.

I also see the idea that anyone is subject to a billion years of anything as problematical; as I understand it, the souls of the dead are outside of time.

Finally, regardless of what percentage of human beings end up in heaven and hell, life is not a gamble. We are not assigned our fates randomly. Our fate depends on how we respond to the grace given us by God, Who does not want anyone to perish.

Consider what St. Basil, a doctor of the Church, wrote about the Holy Spirit:

Filling all things by his power, yet communicable to the worthy alone. Not communicated to all in the same measure, but distributing his energy according to the proportion of faith. Uncompounded in his essence; various in his powers. Wholly present to each, and wholly present everywhere. Divided without passion; being shared, yet remaining whole, like a ray of the sun, whose favor to him who enjoys it is as if to him alone, but which shines over land and sea, and is diffused into the air. Even so the Holy Spirit, while he is wholly present to every one capable of receiving him, infuses into all a grace complete and sufficient, so that partakers enjoy him according to the measure of their ability, not of his power.

Some are not capable of receiving the Holy Spirit. Those that die in this condition are the damned. God as judge recognizes that they are spiritually dead, but He is not the cause of their death. They are spiritual suicides. God does not want anyone to perish in this way. Jesus told us what we need to do to inherit eternal life[see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37&version=NIV”]Luke 10 and Matthew 25], and He has given us the Church to guide us and the sacraments to help us. If we will just make good use of the help the Lord offers us, we do not need to fear overmuch.

A little fear of the Lord to keep us on the right path is a good thing, despair is not.

 

[reggieM]

Why did God create us at all? Wouldn’t it have been better if God created no one so no evil ever existed and there was no possibility of anyone suffering for eternity? I have concluded that it is unanswerable with human reason.

We should still be joyful however that we have the opportunity to enjoy blissful union with God for eternity. It really isn’t that hard to get there, either. Just be baptized, receive the sacraments, and trust in Jesus’ infinite mercy.

We have the possibility to be more joyful because evil exists than if it did not exist.

The possiblity of heroism, for example, can only come about because there is an evil to overcome.

The possiblity of sacrifice can only happen if there is suffering to endure.

There is the possibility of greater love because there is the chance to offer sacrifice. Those who freely choose to love God, in the face of pain and sacrifice, offer a higher degree of love than would be possible if there was no evil.

A simplistic analogy:

A student who is given all the answers of the test while taking it, can achieve a 100% score.

But only when the risk of failure (and the pain and suffering that can cause) can the test show a much higher achievement of getting all the right answers without them being given.

So, the risk of evil provides a greater good.

God could have forced all creatures to do whatever He wanted. But there would be less interest for Him to create a world like that, rather than where creatures could freely choose for or against Him, and thus truly have merit for their actions.