Eternal Happiness is an illusion

[Pieman333272]

Shouldn’t morals reveal it to us? How are you saying it is revealed?

No. Both are revealed to us seperatley in sometimes different, sometimes similar ways. It can be revealed through mysticism, a prophet, scripture, or by instinct. Take your pick.

 

[awatkins69]

I think eternal happiness is more like a donkey who follows a path towards a carrot he wants (can’t see it of course) and, if he doesn’t choose a different path, finally gets it.

Of course, these are really good carrots.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Donkeys don’t possess the capacity for rational thought. People do.

You do realize that you can’t blame me for finding the bible odd when it contains a passage in it where a donkey is talking.

Please, don’t bother going into the canned defenses I have already heard that try to explain that one away.

 

[StrawberryJam]

A very important point. Our world is what we make it: we view things positively or negatively. One prisoner sees bars while another sees stars!

But it’s not** anything** we want it to be. If we think everything exists solely for our benefit we have an unbalanced view of reality and we are bound to come to grief - literally. That’s where morality comes in. It’s simply a recipe for happiness!

Too bad it was heretical to think this way in the time of Galileo. He agreed with the part I bolded.
But, too bad for him.

 

[John21652]

Too bad it was heretical to think this way in the time of Galileo. He agreed with the part I bolded.
But, too bad for him.

You made two posts in a row which have contributed nothing, zero, zilch to the topic. What the blazes has Galileo got to do with the topic?

 

[Simplicitas]

Let us use the analogy of a donkey led by a carrot on a stick. Some might suggest the string ought to be cut so that the donkey can get what he wants without all the effort.

But what if the carrot itself is an illusion? Over time as the carrot decays, the donkey forgets what he was even chasing.

…If you want a carrot, plant a carrot and care for it until it is ready to eat. It takes dedication.

LD, you already failed from the start because your title, “Eternal Happiness is an illusion” attempts to prove a negative, which you cannot do. It is considered a logical fallacy.

Look at the evidence. Miracles are evidence, and they shine out throughout the centuries making Catholicism unique. Miracles baffle scientists to unprofessional silence in the face of empirical evidence they normally profess to always accept.

 

[danserr]

Let us use the analogy of a donkey led by a carrot on a stick. Some might suggest the string ought to be cut so that the donkey can get what he wants without all the effort.

But what if the carrot itself is an illusion? Over time as the carrot decays, the donkey forgets what he was even chasing.

…If you want a carrot, plant a carrot and care for it until it is ready to eat. It takes dedication.

What do you mean by if you want a carrot plant it? You are not really suggesting we get create Eternal happiness for ourselves are you? This doesn’t really seem possible, even if I could somehow (I don’t know how) create perfect happiness in this life, that wouldn’t prevent me from dying and thereby losing it all. If the only source of eternal happiness is God, you have to go to Him for it.

Why think that eternal happiness is an illusion? We have some idea of what the “new creation” will be like via Jesus’ own Resurrection. St. Paul speaks of Jesus as the “first fruits,” the “first born of the new creation,” and somewhere else, that he’s the "first born of new creation. Jesus himself says in his father’s house their are many dwelling places and that he’s going to prepare a place for us. So why think eternal happiness is an illusion?

 

[StrawberryJam]

LD, you already failed from the start because your title, “Eternal Happiness is an illusion” attempts to prove a negative, which you cannot do. It is considered a logical fallacy.

Look at the evidence. Miracles are evidence, and they shine out throughout the centuries making Catholicism unique. Miracles baffle scientists to unprofessional silence in the face of empirical evidence they normally profess to always accept.

Which scientists are “baffled” by these alleged Miracles? I don’t think there would be any reason to be baffled by something you are not allowed to test. Baffled that the claim is hanging out there maybe.

 

[Pieman333272]

Which scientists are “baffled” by these alleged Miracles? I don’t think there would be any reason to be baffled by something you are not allowed to test. Baffled that the claim is hanging out there maybe.

I think, if you don’t mind me answering for him SJ, that scientists are unable to put forward a purely natural hypothesis for how and why these miracles happened, leaving the ground open for God, Mary, or Jesus’ doing it.

 

[Simplicitas]

Which scientists are “baffled” by these alleged Miracles? I don’t think there would be any reason to be baffled by something you are not allowed to test. Baffled that the claim is hanging out there maybe.

Scientists pride themselves on “reason” and empirical evidence. Yet, miracles often have this. Human testimony is evidence, and physical effects before & after are too. For a real example, at the turn of the last century the scientists have it documented with observation, documentation and x-ray that a man’s lower leg was broken and a piece of bone missing. The bone protruded even out of the skin, and attempts at healing were going for months. The man finally went on a train to Lourdes, people even witnessing his foot dangling and turned backwards because of the break. Short story, the man was walking on his leg completely healed the next day. The doctors took x-rays and they could see the bone scar in the same place perfectly healed, yet the missing bone was supplied. This is just one example. Scientists should not CEASE to talk about it, yet they do the opposite and pretend like there is no significance and didn’t even happen. Yes, they know where that evidence inevitably leads.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Scientists pride themselves on “reason” and empirical evidence. Yet, miracles often have this. Human testimony is evidence, and physical effects before & after are too. For a real example, at the turn of the last century the scientists have it documented with observation, documentation and x-ray that a man’s lower leg was broken and a piece of bone missing. The bone protruded even out of the skin, and attempts at healing were going for months. The man finally went on a train to Lourdes, people even witnessing his foot dangling and turned backwards because of the break. Short story, the man was walking on his leg completely healed the next day. The doctors took x-rays and they could see the bone scar in the same place perfectly healed, yet the missing bone was supplied. This is just one example. Scientists should not CEASE to talk about it, yet they do the opposite and pretend like there is no significance and didn’t even happen. Yes, they know where that evidence inevitably leads.

Not seeing the evidence, let alone to where it allegedly leads.

Do you realize why this is not baffling any scientist?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I think, if you don’t mind me answering for him SJ, that scientists are unable to put forward a purely natural hypothesis for how and why these miracles happened, leaving the ground open for God, Mary, or Jesus’ doing it.

They can only test what they are allowed to test.

There is no reason to defend these alleged events. Neither does it follow that there is open ground for anything as a result of the alleged events that are untested.

 

[Pieman333272]

They can only test what they are allowed to test.

There is no reason to defend these alleged events. Neither does it follow that there is open ground for anything as a result of the alleged events that are untested.

Well, they can test them, at least 3 Eucharistic Miracles have been tested, the thing I think he meant was even if they test them, they are unable to come up with a natural explanation.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Nah It’s not an illusion

but it sure feels far away on a cold day in London as people pile angrily into the shops to buy all their expensive presents on Dies Domini whilst a poor homeless man freezes to death

 

[tonyrey]

Nah It’s not an illusion

but it sure feels far away on a cold day in London as people pile angrily into the shops to buy all their expensive presents on Dies Domini whilst a poor homeless man freezes to death

It may** feel** like that but it is all the more reason to believe he will be consoled and compensated in heaven. Why believe in justice if justice doesn’t exist?

 

[tonyrey]

A very important point. Our

The Church has never taught that the universe exists **solely **for the benefit of mankind. The attitude of St Francis towards animals and inanimate objects is an example of the view that nature is valuable in itself…

 

[John_of_Woking]

It may** feel** like that but it is all the more reason to believe he will be consoled and compensated in heaven. Why believe in justice if justice doesn’t exist?

I agree with you . I know my feelings are inclined towards the despair end of the spectrum but God is Good and Justice (and hopefully mercy in my case ) will prevail.

 

[Simplicitas]

Not seeing the evidence, let alone to where it allegedly leads.

Do you realize why this is not baffling any scientist?

You speak here as if each individual scientist must test for himself what another scientist has already documented in order to believe it. This is not the case. All experience and testimony is evidence. Scientists are known to speak in amazement of things they can no longer touch or test, making theories about it. Anything that happens must fit in somewhere. Repeatedly, there have been sudden abrupt healings significantly associated with Catholicism, with devotion and prayer. What would a scientist say to the broken leg? The doctor was a scientist who tested it before and after! Things like this have repeatedly occurred.

Another case I recall was a war veteran from Britain. He had a hole in his skull (as well as atrophied arm and could not walk). The day after he went to Lourdes these were all gone. Yes, he had these tested likewise before and after. In fact, he had a disabled pension from the British gov’t and went back to them to tell them he didn’t need it any longer.

It does all point to the notion that there is something uniquely special about Catholicism unlike no other alleged religion.

 

[lemondiesel]

My apologies for the delayed responses. I am trying to work through the replies now.

No. Both are revealed to us seperatley in sometimes different, sometimes similar ways. It can be revealed through mysticism, a prophet, scripture, or by instinct. Take your pick.

I would say instinct is the only way, because a prophet or scripture can easily be misleading. This Eternal Happiness is only revealed to us by living a moral life. When we do that, we understand what this Happiness truly is.

What do you mean by if you want a carrot plant it? You are not really suggesting we get create Eternal happiness for ourselves are you?

Are you really suggesting that we need help to achieve Eternal Happiness? The beginning steps of Eternal Happiness are within, which then we spread throughout the world.

 

[davidv]

My apologies for the delayed responses. I am trying to work through the replies now.

I would say instinct is the only way, because a prophet or scripture can easily be misleading.

He could, just as easily, be speaking the truth.

This Eternal Happiness is only revealed to us by living a moral life. When we do that, we understand what this Happiness truly is.

Are you really suggesting that we need help to achieve Eternal Happiness?

Yes, we most certainly need help. Doing things on our often leads to much unhappiness.

The beginning steps of Eternal Happiness are within, which then we spread throughout the world.

This is true. The grace of God within, beckoning us toward Him.