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Vico
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Tim Staples wrote: “the Church’s Magisterium has, in fact, taught that there are souls in hell now, and that there will be for all eternity. “Which human beings” we do not know without special divine revelation.”
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Gorgias
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That’s an interesting assumption you’re making there! To wit, that God creates, already knowing a person’s destiny. Some would disagree that God has this kind of what’s called “middle knowledge.” Therefore, having not willed a person to life, they would say that God’s omniscience does not entail Him knowing the fate of a person who does not exist.
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TK421
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I don’t know if such a thing can be fully understood, but if it helps: it’s abundantly self-evident that people knowingly make decisions in this life all the time that make them miserable.
To name one example: many people have extremely strong emotions about the abortion debate. What if a person supernaturally comes to the truth that a woman DOES NOT have the right to terminate a child, but the person is so infuriated with the idea because of their pride, that they reject the truth anyway? That would lead to separation from God because of their delusional insistence that good is evil and evil is good. “My body, my right”. Me me me. My my my.
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o_mlly
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If souls go to hell, it seems to me they may have 2 possible states of mind. The 1st would allow St. John’s insight to be possible but the 2nd would not, in my opinion.
Of course, hearing that from one who is irredeemably in hell would be more convincing.
If souls go to hell, it seems to me they may have 2 possible states of mind. The 1st would allow St. John’s insight to be possible but the 2nd would not, in my opinion.
- If one in hell still does not know that the end for which they were designed and created can never be realized – union with their Creator – then to remain in their particular unsatisfying sin is their purpose and that miserable existence is better than non-existence.
- If in hell one knows with certainty that the end for which they were designed and created can never be realized – union with their Creator – then what can be their the purpose for existing? It’s the certainty and never in that reality that lead me to think that, like Judas, utter despair prefers suicide in this life and non-existence in the next. Sisyphus’ life is not the life worth living.
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Vico
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Two senses of rights (noun from Goodle dictionary) are, so it looks like legal sense not moral:
- that which is morally correct, just, or honorable.
- a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.
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MaximilianK
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For me, middle knowledge isn’t a solution, for everyone is very very clear that God already know all things that will be happened.
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Vico
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OK. Does that have some bearing on the post about Tim Staples on there being souls in hell now?Vico:
For me, middle knowledge isn’t a solution, for everyone is very very clear that God already know all things that will be happened.
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OSN
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one of those deep subjects where there is no logically acceptable answer.
Because now one is trying to understand God, with human intellect, or bring Gods reasoning to a human level, an it just doesn’t work. Like trying to put a cord to an electric device that pumps out way too much power to the cord, an in turn burns up the cord.
Tell me what would of happened had Judas picked up on the clues that Jesus was dropping before he decided to rat Jesus out ? Well heck not even clues, Jesus flat out said infront of Judas one of you will betray me. An it literally didn’t phase Judas at all.
Exactly how does Jesus then, save humanity, if Judas didn’t betray him ?
Then you have to dive into is God doing anything with Humanity even necessary if Satan wasn’t around. What if Satan gets bored and just decides to stop being Satan. Then what ?
Gods’ love to give humanity " Free will " or as I prefer freedom to choose, still for me doesn’t really hold well, in the category as being love . An while it is great that Jesus chose to die for humanity, I cant come to terms as to how the Church can declare that humanity from now till the end of time is in a state of original sin, when Christ died, an resurrected and destroyed sin an death, an some how the Church wants everyone to believe that we are born with this stain of original sin. When everything Christ taught says other wise.
After a while it stops making sense. An only gets worse to try an comprehend. UNLESS you have signed up to be a theologian . Then it all makes the most divine perfect and holy sense that could ever be. an is as clear as it gets.
Boils down though to perspective and ones relationship with God, where then complete strangers online an in real life try to pretend to be able to judge for others to know. But again perspective, if ya give complete strangers control to judge you, then ipsofacto they become right in their judgement and have power.
In the end, we can’t control what happens. Best one can do is pick a side, do the best you can, an hold on an hope for the best.
Because now one is trying to understand God, with human intellect, or bring Gods reasoning to a human level, an it just doesn’t work. Like trying to put a cord to an electric device that pumps out way too much power to the cord, an in turn burns up the cord.
Tell me what would of happened had Judas picked up on the clues that Jesus was dropping before he decided to rat Jesus out ? Well heck not even clues, Jesus flat out said infront of Judas one of you will betray me. An it literally didn’t phase Judas at all.
Exactly how does Jesus then, save humanity, if Judas didn’t betray him ?
Then you have to dive into is God doing anything with Humanity even necessary if Satan wasn’t around. What if Satan gets bored and just decides to stop being Satan. Then what ?
Gods’ love to give humanity " Free will " or as I prefer freedom to choose, still for me doesn’t really hold well, in the category as being love . An while it is great that Jesus chose to die for humanity, I cant come to terms as to how the Church can declare that humanity from now till the end of time is in a state of original sin, when Christ died, an resurrected and destroyed sin an death, an some how the Church wants everyone to believe that we are born with this stain of original sin. When everything Christ taught says other wise.
After a while it stops making sense. An only gets worse to try an comprehend. UNLESS you have signed up to be a theologian . Then it all makes the most divine perfect and holy sense that could ever be. an is as clear as it gets.
Boils down though to perspective and ones relationship with God, where then complete strangers online an in real life try to pretend to be able to judge for others to know. But again perspective, if ya give complete strangers control to judge you, then ipsofacto they become right in their judgement and have power.
In the end, we can’t control what happens. Best one can do is pick a side, do the best you can, an hold on an hope for the best.
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Gorgias
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Not everyone, if the question isn’t merely “all things that will [have] happened”, but also “all things which do not happen”. That’s the crux of the question, with respect to ‘middle knowledge’!
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TMC
Guest
Not trying to start a fight, but I do believe this is the case. Can you remind me where in Scripture we find fallen demons.
I certainly agree that demons are discussed in scripture, and that the Church seems to have traditionally believed demons were not redeemable. I just don’t think its scriptural. I am not saying it has to be - not all traditions are biblical, and Catholicism is not limited to what appears in scripture. Just trying to nail down the source of this belief.
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