Eternal Hell vs. Non-Eternal Hellfire

[happilycatholic]

Hello all! Below is an excerpt from a discussion I had some time ago with a poster on the subject of Hell being eternal vs. Hellfire being temporary and all those cast into it being abolished from existance, thus no “eternal hell”. Temporary hellfire is not a catholic belief and so the reason for my postng it here. The excerpt is my response to the poster and the poster did not care to rebut so I am looking for some discussion on the subject. I am simply curious as to why some folks believe that a soul is eternal on the one hand, but that one could be burned up and disappear from all existance from Heaven and Earth on the other hand. This is contradictory in IMHO. Please pay close attention to my last comment in bold here. I’m looking forward to any discussion on this subject.

…But there is also plenty of Scripture that says the fires of hell are eternal: Matt. 9:43 And if thy hand …, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Take this into consideration as well, all souls are eternal. Whether your soul is going to Heaven or hell, it is eternal. There is nothing that I know of in Scripture that refers to the soul being temporary.

Even though sinners will be burned to ashes as in your example here: Malachi 4:1-3 ``Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. …THEY WILL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET ON THE DAY WHEN I DO THESE THINGS,’’ says the Lord Almighty. "

Their souls will be consumed in an eternal hell. You are assuming the ashes are the end result. The fires may be finite, the damnation of hell is eternal and eternal damnation is the result of sin. That is, the soul’s eternal separation from God or hell.

Personal Opinion: The fire may be symbolic of burning away every last “connection” the soul has to God as in Matt. 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.

One last thing, the opposite of Eternal Life is not “to perish” or to cease to exist, it’s Eternal Death. To exist in death or separation from Life, which is God. “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

 

[Jay53]

Can you post the information about the temporary hellfire, or was that it?

My initial thought was that the temporary hellfire would be similar to purgatory - but that doesn’t agree with any notion that a soul would cease to exist. I don’t know that I’ve heard of that. I always thought that once your soul was created it is eternal. (Thus the whole discussion of babies and limbo vs. heaven and where their souls go etc. and for everyone, no I don’t wish to get into a debate about that topic, it was just an example. )

Perhaps if you can point me to the initial thread I can get a better gist of the topic and arguments for/against.

Thanks.

 

[happilycatholic]

Can you post the information about the temporary hellfire, or was that it?

My initial thought was that the temporary hellfire would be similar to purgatory - but that doesn’t agree with any notion that a soul would cease to exist. I don’t know that I’ve heard of that. I always thought that once your soul was created it is eternal. (Thus the whole discussion of babies and limbo vs. heaven and where their souls go etc. and for everyone, no I don’t wish to get into a debate about that topic, it was just an example. )

Perhaps if you can point me to the initial thread I can get a better gist of the topic and arguments for/against.

Thanks.

Hi Jay53:

This discussion started a long while ago so I don’t have the actual posts nor do I know where they are. I’d saved my response in another format to come back to later. As I recall, the poster was referring to Revalation as it talks about those who are cast into hell would burn and then just be “gone”. The idea was that God cannot be cruel enough to allow a soul to burn eternally in hell.

I don’t have any references for you because I believe the opposite. I believe what my Church teaches and that is hell IS eternal.

The simple argument is this: Is hell simply burning up in some big fire or is it eternal?

 

[Jay53]

Hi Jay53:

This discussion started a long while ago so I don’t have the actual posts nor do I know where they are. I’d saved my response in another format to come back to later. As I recall, the poster was referring to Revalation as it talks about those who are cast into hell would burn and then just be “gone”. The idea was that God cannot be cruel enough to allow a soul to burn eternally in hell.

I don’t have any references for you because I believe the opposite. I believe what my Church teaches and that is hell IS eternal.

The simple argument is this: Is hell simply burning up in some big fire or is it eternal?

OK. I guess I’m no help to you then because I believe the same thing you do. Maybe at some point after the end of the world God will have mercy and eliminate hell and everyone in it will cease to exist, but I obviously don’t have anything to back up that thought scripture-wise. And I don’t have access to God’s plans. Sorry I can’t help.

 

[Catholic_Martyr]

Hell is eternal, souls are eternal, eternity is ummmm… what’s the word again? Eternal! After the world ends, so does time, so there is no point in expecting reprieve from hell at any time (which no longer exists remember).

I also believe the Church and the words of Jesus.

My 2 cents

 

[Eucharisted]

Ignatius of Antioch

“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

“But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments” (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

“We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21).

“[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

“When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

“[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

“Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire” (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

“[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

“The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever” (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

“After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending” (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).*

 

[Eucharisted]

“Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility” (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

“Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

“I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them” (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life” (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

“[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire” (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past” (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Eucharisted]

The Didache

There are two ways, one of life and one of death; but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, your neighbour as yourself; and all things whatsoever you would should not occur to you, do not also do to another. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for them that persecute you. For what thank is there, if you love them that love you? Do not also the Gentiles do the same? But do ye love them that hate you; and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If one give you a blow upon your right cheek, turn to him the other also; and you shall be perfect. If one impress you for one mile, go with him two. If one take away your cloak, give him also your coat. If one take from you your own, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one that asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he that gives according to the commandment; for he is guiltless. Woe to him that receives; for if one having need receives, he is guiltless; but he that receives not having need, shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what, and, coming into straits (confinement), he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape thence until he pay back the last farthing. But also now concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.

 

[Cluny]

Read THE RIVER OF FIRE by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros and see what the Eastern Christian doctrine of hellfire is.

orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

(Ignore his remarks about St. Augustine. In any case, the propositions he attributes to St. Augustine are actually from St. Anselm.)

 

[Eucharisted]

Read THE RIVER OF FIRE by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros and see what the Eastern Christian doctrine of hellfire is.

orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

(Ignore his remarks about St. Augustine. In any case, the propositions he attributes to St. Augustine are actually from St. Anselm.)

I hope the Orthodox don’t embrace this man’s views, because he is off his rocket. He started off good, about love growing cold, but then when he got to atheism and western theology, he fell apart.