Eternal hell vs Universal salvation

[Brieuc]

Hello everybody,

I have a doctrinal question regarding hell. I was raised Catholic during my childhood and during my adolescence I became an agnostic for more or less 15 years. About 6 years ago « supernatural » things happened that brought me to Christ almost 4 years ago. I think God wanted my wife and me to go to an Evangelical Protestant church because of the way it happened. We stayed in the church about 1 year and we had some really great moments there.

We now left the church because I couldn’t handle anymore the idea of an eternal hell. It was even more difficult that my family doesn’t really believe in Jesus. Life was really difficult (or even terrible) when I was thinking that people or my loved ones or even me could be tormented in hell forever. Before leaving the church I came to the knowledge that it exists (at least) two other views than the one of eternal hell which are annihilationism and Universal salvation.

Universal salvation (or Universal reconciliation) is the doctrine (as I understand it so far) that we need to believe in Jesus to be saved but those who don’t believe will possibly go to a kind of « hell » after they die, but that « hell » will not last forever. That « hell » could possibly be punitive but rather redemptive and bring everybody at the end to the knowledge of Jesus-Christ and therefore everybody would be saved. Even if I’m still not sure (unfortunately) this is the true doctrine regarding hell, I hope it and pray it with all my heart for that.

They are a lot of verse in the Bible that seems to indicate it will be te case. For instance
Romans 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If somebody wants more explanations on this, I recommand the book « Hope Beyond Hell » by Gerry Beauchemin.

There were also some Fathers of the Church that seemed to have believed in the doctrine of universal salvation like Clement of Alexandria, Origen (I know his doctrine on this point was condemned but it isn’t so clear) or even Gregory of Nyssa. In the case of Gregory of Nyssa, he even seemed to have believed that Satan will be saved at the end and I think that is wonderful because Jesus taught us to love our enemies and Satan is probably our worst enemy.

I wanted to know the position of the Catholic Church on this point. Does a Catholic can believe in universal salvation or does the Catholic Church at least leave the possibility that it could be the true doctrine ? If not than how to understand that Gregory of Nyssa seemed to have taught universal salvation because from what I understood a Father of the Church has to have a perfect theology or am I wrong on this point ?

I am asking you those questions because recently things happened in our life and I think God is trying to bring us closer to the Catholic Church. I hope I won’t lead anybody on a false road whith this very sensible topic.

Thank you all in advance for your answers and I pray for all of you that God will bless you and help you all in your difficulties, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus-Christ,
With my best regards,

Brieuc

 

[Vico]

…
Does a Catholic can believe in universal salvation or does the Catholic Church at least leave the possibility that it could be the true doctrine ? If not than how to understand that Gregory of Nyssa seemed to have taught universal salvation because from what I understood a Father of the Church has to have a perfect theology or am I wrong on this point ?
…

The fathers of the Church are not perfect in their understanding, nor must they be.

There is a dogma of faith against the idea of universal salvation (Apocatastasis). Yes, several taught it:

• St. Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
• St. Origen of Alexandria (184-253 A.D.)
• St. Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.)
• St. Gregory of Nyssa (335-394 A.D.)

Catholic Encyclopedia

“In any case, the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”

Batiffol, P. (1907). Apocatastasis. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

 

[Brieuc]

Thank you Vico for your interesting reply and for your links.

So I note that this belief is not a heresy but rather heterodox?

I also would like to know if what is said in a Council (in this example the one of Constantinople) is the official position of the Catholic faith. I mean does it represent the official dogma of the Catholic faith and if it is the case, is there a way this Catholic dogma could be changed or canceled? For instance if the Pope would say that he regards Universal salvation as the truth, would it become a true dogma? Or if a new Council would say that they accepted Universal salvation, would it be considered correct ?

If not, what would it require for the Catholic Church to change its position about this, if ever possible?

At last, if we go back to one of the things that have been condemned in the Council of Constantinople:

I. If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.

Could we say that is was the understanding of St. Origen’s universal salvation that was condemned (which could be the salvation of everybody because everybody would have already existed before in his view) and not the Universal salvation as somebody else teaches it (maybe St. Gregory of Nyssa for instance, if ever it was different) ? Do you see what I mean ? If the Universal salvation as St. Origen is describing it is wrong, it doesn’t necessarily means that it is impossible that everybody will be saved at the end. In that case, maybe a new Council could affirm that Universal salvation (different from the one taught by St. Origen) is true. Could this be possible?

Thank you again for your answers, the doctrine of Universal salvation is so important for me but I really want to know the truth about that.

Have a nice evening and thank you again for your help,
Brieuc

 

[Arkansan]

I mean does it represent the official dogma of the Catholic faith and if it is the case, is there a way this Catholic dogma could be changed or canceled? For instance if the Pope would say that he regards Universal salvation as the truth, would it become a true dogma? Or if a new Council would say that they accepted Universal salvation, would it be considered correct ?

If not, what would it require for the Catholic Church to change its position about this, if ever possible?

If the Church’s teachings could change, they wouldn’t be trustworthy.

From what you’ve said, you believe in universalism simply because it’s more comfortable to believe in, not because the arguments for it are more convincing. This is an extremely irrational thing to do, as whether or not you believe in Hell will not have an effect on whether or not it exists. Believing that Hell (or disease, war, or any other bad thing in the world) doesn’t exist, only makes your beliefs out of line with reality, it doesn’t change reality.

 

[Usagi]

It is theoretically possible that every human being could accept God’s promptings of grace and end up in Heaven. Some theologians therefore say that we may hope that Hell is empty. That is consonant with Catholic teaching, though it is something of a minority view. I hope for that myself.

It is not consonant with Catholic teaching to believe that Hell does not exist, or that it is temporary, or that it is not a real possibility for every human soul.

 

[JamalChristophr]

The vast overwhelming majority of lay Catholics and theologians believe in an eternal hell.

Scripture supports this view, namely, the words of Christ in the Gospels.

How strongly in many passages does Christ admonish sinners of the possibility of a person falling into eternal misery.

I’m not going to further comment on this thread, but one can easily do an internet search to obtain more information.

Below is a link to Catholic Answers Apologist Tim Staple’s thoughts on this topic.

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[JamalChristophr]

Finally, to add. This is what Mr. Staples concludes and I happen to agree with…

While we did not broach the topic of “how many” will be saved; that is for another time, our focus here has been on the question of whether there are and whether there will be souls in hell for all eternity. Greater minds than mine, like the aforementioned Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Fr. Robert Barron, have posited the possibility that all men could well be saved. Indeed, Fr. Barron even claims that as Catholics we “must” hold this to be a real possibility.

In a word, both of these great men are wrong. The teaching of the Church is clear. CCC 1034 teaches us that Jesus “solemnly proclaim[ed]” that Christ will, in fact, “pronounce the condemnation: ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!’” And the Church can do nothing but repeat her Lord’s solemn words.

 

[1ke]

Could this be possible?

No. Both universal salvation and annihilation are heretical propositions. The Church teaching on Hell is a dogma— both its existence and its eternity.

Dogma cannot change. No, another council or a Pope cannot change the teaching on Hell.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

Please talk to your pastor about your fears and concerns. Seeking a church that teaches something you find palatable does you no good when it is false.

 

[Brieuc]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer me.

Arkansan I understand what you say regarding the fact that if the Church changed it would maybe not be trustworthy. Nonetheless, didn’t the church change its mind in the past on some issues? For example didn’t the Church apologized for what happened with Galileo in the past? Or in the Bible it seems also that St. Peter was wrong about some things and had to be corrected by St. Paul. So are errors in dogma not possible in the Catholic Church?

I just specify that I didn’t say hell didn’t exist. I rather think and hope it is not eternal. You are right in saying that beleiving in universal is (far) more comfortable. Nonetheless it is not « simply » because of that that I believe or hope in it.

When I was in my Evangelical church I was searching if there was a hope for people in hell. With time I discovered that there was the doctrine Universal salvation. Furthermore, when I bought the book of « Hope Beyond Hell » mentioned above on amazon, it arrived exactly on my birthday so I think, if it is a gift of God, it is one of the most beautiful gift I ever received. Even more, the second time I bought 3 copies of the same book on amazon (about two years later), again it arrived on my birthday. So you can see it is not the only reason I hope in Universal salvation.

There are also a lot of other reasons I hope in Universal salvation, for example the fact that the world eternal (Aión in greek, which could possibly be translated Eon in english) in the New Testament does not necessary believe eternal. Neither can we find the word Hell in the New Testament but rather words like hades and gehenna. So isn’t possible that some early christians mistook that for eternal hell like could have done St. Augustine (which apparently never mastered greek) in contrast to St. Gregory of Nyssa which spoke greek and appartently (thank you Vico for the confirmation) taught Universal salvation?

I am happy that you hope that Hell is empty Usagi. That is also a view that I could of course accept, even if I think it is rather temporal and with redemptive purpose than empty. But maybe your view would be even more beautiful than the one I hope for.

JamalChristophr, regarding what you add in your second message:“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”: if we take the greek word for eternal (here aiōnion) it doens’t necessary mean eternal. This question of the correct translation of aion and its adjective is of course an important if not a main point in Universal salvation.

1ke, when you said that a Pope cannot change the teaching on hell, I thought because of the Papal infallibility, if he says something regarding a doctrine, doesn’t it mean it must be true? You asked me to talk to my pastor about my fears and concerns but I left the church, more than two years now, because of the teaching of eternal hell. Furthermore like I said, those last weeks I think God brought me closer to the Catholic Church and I still don’t know what to do with it.

Thank you all for your time and trying to help me with my struggles.

With my best regards,

Brieuc

 

[Kei]

No, when we apologize for Galileo, etc., what’s happening is we are apologizing for the actions done to someone.
We cannot change dogma. God does not change. Theological opinions can change.

It seems like you’re trying to change Hell to a sort of Purgatory. Do you know what Purgatory is?

 

[1ke]

Nonetheless, didn’t the church change its mind in the past on some issues?

No.

For example didn’t the Church apologized for what happened with Galileo in the past?

apologizing for the behavior or actions of a person is not the same thing as changing dogma.

Or in the Bible it seems also that St. Peter was wrong about some things and had to be corrected by St. Paul.

Behavior not doctrine.

So are errors in dogma not possible in the Catholic Church?

No.

hope it is not eternal.

Jesus has told us that it is.

 

[Brieuc]

Thank you very much Kei and 1ke for your reply.

Kei, you are right, in my opinion we could see Universal salvation like a « kind of Purgatory » with one of the difference that it would consist of unsaved people that would all, with time, come to the knowledge of Jesus-Christ and therefore be saved.

But when you say « it seems like you’re trying… », I just want to clarify that I didn’t made up Universal salvation and like mentionned above, some early Church Fathers like St. Gregory of Nyssa taught that view.

Thank you all again for your answers and your explanations. I pray for each one of you that God will bless you all. I pray also for all Christians to be united in Jesus-Christ and I pray with all my heart for every human, every spirit, every soul and every creature, without exception, to be one day saved and to be reconciled with God and happy for eternity, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus-Christ,

Sincerely,

Brieuc

 

[Erikaspirit16]

About 6 years ago « supernatural » things happened that brought me to Christ almost 4 years ago. I think God wanted my wife and me to go to an Evangelical Protestant church because of the way it happened.

it arrived exactly on my birthday so I think, if it is a gift of God, it is one of the most beautiful gift I ever received. Even more, the second time I bought 3 copies of the same book on amazon (about two years later), again it arrived on my birthday. So you can see it is not the only reason I hope in Universal salvation.

This is superstition. It sounds like you are looking for a “God” who will communicate directly with you. If I were you I would think about that for a while.

 

[Mboo]

the magisterium of the Catholic Church has never affirmed that a person would be in Hell (not even Judas). So to believe that no human will go to Hell is not a heretical opinion

 

[jtavington]

It is possible all will repent before death and we must hope for every individual’s salvation but yes, I believe there will be people in hell. Absolutely.

 

[thistle]

Universalism is a heresy condemned by the Church.

 

[Usagi]

I think we all want every human being to end up in Heaven. (Revelation strongly indicates that it is not reasonable to hope for the salvation of the demons, though I believe this is due to their nature and obstinacy, not because God wouldn’t forgive even them if they could and would repent.)

However, we are required by the Church (based on the data of revelation), and I believe by most other flavors of Christianity as well, to affirm that Hell is real and eternal. We can hope that no human is ultimately damned, but we cannot hold that someone who is damned will eventually be saved. If all of creation is ultimately reconciled to God (and make no mistake, that would be the ultimate win condition for our side), it will be because He got to each individual being before they ended up in Hell, not after.