Eternal Life

  • Thread starter Thread starter IamCarl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

IamCarl

Guest
If both believers and unbelievers have immortal (eternal, everlasting) souls, then what is the eternal life promised by Jesus to the believers?

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:27-28

Wouldn’t life already be eternal whether it be in Heaven, Hell, or in limbo in between?
 
Incorrect. We all have souls, whether or not they are immortal is up to us.

Your soul is only immortal by the grace of God. If you are in a state of mortal sin you are without grace and your soul is essentially dead.

Souls that are alive and full of grace go to heaven. Dead souls go to hell.
 
Incorrect. We all have souls, whether or not they are immortal is up to us.

Your soul is only immortal by the grace of God. If you are in a state of mortal sin you are without grace and your soul is essentially dead.

Souls that are alive and full of grace go to heaven. Dead souls go to hell.
I’m not sure this really answers the question unless you were to consider hell to be death without resurrection, not a place of eternal torment. I think this is what the OP is asking.
I’m also confused by your statement that the immortality of our souls is up to us, which seems to conflict with your statement that the immortality of our souls in up to God. I was taught that mortal sin puts the soul in jeoardy of damnation, not death. If you could clarify what you mean by “dead souls” it would be helpful. Thank you and God bless you.
 
You are correct, all souls are immortal.

When Jesus states he came so that we may have “eternal life,” he means access to the Beatific Vision, also known as Heaven. He means being in the presence of God.

You will note Jesus contrasts eternal life with eternal damnation-- for example when he discusses separating the sheep and goats.

Therefore, those who do not have eternal life (i.e. enter Heaven) will experience eternal damnation (i.e. Hell).
 
Incorrect. We all have souls, whether or not they are immortal is up to us.

Your soul is only immortal by the grace of God. If you are in a state of mortal sin you are without grace and your soul is essentially dead.

Souls that are alive and full of grace go to heaven. Dead souls go to hell.
Thank you for your response! So you are saying that a soul is spiritually dead when it goes to hell. Interesting.

The word for perish is the Greek apollymi. It means to destroy utterly and also to lose.

It is used in these verses as well:

“Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.” Matt 12:14, Mar 3:6

“But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.” Matt 27:20

“And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.” Luke 8:24

“And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!” Luke 15:17

“And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.” Luke 17:26-29

It appears that the word apollymi means to destroy or to perish (as it is mostly translated) as the way the English understands it: to die and be no more.

It seems like Christ is saying that the believers shall have eternal life and the disbelievers shall die and remain in the ground to turn into dust. They shall be utterly destroyed and all traces of them shall be forgotten. This agrees with the Old Testament and the wisdom of Solomon (which is God’s wisdom).

“All [things come] alike to all: [there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so [is] the sinner; [and] he that sweareth, as [he] that feareth an oath. This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.” Ecc 9:2-6

Incidentally, the word translated perish in verse 6 is translated by the Greek septuagint as apolyto is the middle indicative form of apollymi used in the verses I gave. It means to perish, to kill, to die. Jesus himself equates death with falling asleep. When you are asleep, you know nothing and see nothing. You are in a state of unconsciousness. Therefore, death would be a state of unconsciousness or blackness. No thinking, no speaking, no feeling, nothing in absolute terms.

Life is dictated by consciousness. If a man has eternal life, he has eternal consciousness. It does not matter if he is a state of eternal bliss or eternal torture. He is still conscious of his surroundings and susceptible to emotion and pain.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6023738#post6023738

When we realize that soul means life. Then when you say immortal soul, you really mean immortal life. Thus, if believers and disbelievers all have eternal souls, then they all have eternal lives already. So what did Christ promise his followers when he promised eternal life? He did not promise Heaven. He promised living forever.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6023738#post6023738

When we realize that soul means life. Then when you say immortal soul, you really mean immortal life. Thus, if believers and disbelievers all have eternal souls, then they all have eternal lives already. So what did Christ promise his followers when he promised eternal life? He did not promise Heaven. He promised living forever.
**
Immortal is not the same as eternal.**

Eternal is without beginning or end.

Immortal fits the Infinite type of definition in that we are Created Beings infused with a soul. We have a definite beginning but no clear end in sight.

Somewhat like the infinity of whole Numbers there are multiple types of Infinity.
the Infinity of all whole Numbers, the infinity of all odd & even numbers.

In like manner an immortal presence with God would be clearly different from an Immortal Presence without God. In like manner both would be subjected to a different set of descriptive words.

yours in Christ
 
I just read my post again and I’m not sure what I was talking about. I seemed to have mixed up some words. It’s too late for me to delete the post. So let me try again.

I’ll only use the CCC this time. 🙂

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

382 “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity” (GS 14 § 1). The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.

990 The term “flesh” refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality. The “resurrection of the flesh” (the literal formulation of the Apostles’ Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our “mortal body” will come to life again.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.” From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6023738#post6023738

When we realize that soul means life. Then when you say immortal soul, you really mean immortal life. Thus, if believers and disbelievers all have eternal souls, then they all have eternal lives already. So what did Christ promise his followers when he promised eternal life? He did not promise Heaven. He promised living forever.
All living things have souls the difference is that the human soul is also spiritual. So when one is “dead” in sin it means they are spirually dead not their soul is dead…The spirit is cut off from the source of life (God). So the promise is being eternally linked to life.(GOD).
 
All living things have souls the difference is that the human soul is also spiritual. So when one is “dead” in sin it means they are spirually dead not their soul is dead…The spirit is cut off from the source of life (God). So the promise is being eternally linked to life.(GOD).
“Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?” Ecc 3:21

Beasts of the field also have spirit.
 
**
Immortal is not the same as eternal.**

Eternal is without beginning or end.

Immortal fits the Infinite type of definition in that we are Created Beings infused with a soul. We have a definite beginning but no clear end in sight.

Somewhat like the infinity of whole Numbers there are multiple types of Infinity.
the Infinity of all whole Numbers, the infinity of all odd & even numbers.

In like manner an immortal presence with God would be clearly different from an Immortal Presence without God. In like manner both would be subjected to a different set of descriptive words.

yours in Christ
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:15

So we have immortal souls and are made to be eternal, without beginning or end like God? Now that does not make any sense.

Now God’s spirit is eternal and if we become one spiritually with God then we can say that we become a part of His eternal being. This explicates manifestation and emphasizes the purpose of the Father’s name. Our life shall be coupled with His life, which is eternal. He will be with us and in us for all time. But this is of a spiritual meat. Our actual lives or souls have a beginning, and if we are found worthy, will live forever.

Thus if you already have an immortal life or soul, then what is it that Christ promises? He is promising life and not death. Thus, if you are a dying soul as Solomon says we are or are we an immortal soul as Plato says we are. If Solomon is right, then we all die and need Christ in order to live. If the Gnostics are right, then we do not die but transform and we need Christ in order to attain a better plain of existence beyond this one.

I think I will side with Solomon. God gave him wisdom. I will trust in this wisdom. We all die and go to the grave, both the righteous and the unrighteous.
 
It appears that the word apollymi means to destroy or to perish (as it is mostly translated) as the way the English understands it: to die and be no more.
No it doesn’t. Out of 50 occurences of apollumi in NT 26x it has to do with ‘loss/lose/lost’

eg,
ηλθεν γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ζητησαι και σωσαι το απολωλος.

old Zacchaeus was already annihilated?? Yet a candidate for salvation??..that makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

but it fits in well with your theology. Here everybody, this is what Christadelphians believe:

  1. *]You must become a Christadelphian and be baptized by them in order to have a chance at salvation.
    *]Jesus was the son of God, but not God in the flesh (denying the Trinity)
    *]The Holy Spirit is the radiant energy/power of God, not 3rd person of the Trinity, and he does not indwell the believer.
    *]Jesus was not born sinless. But we must achieve sinless perfection, like Christ did in order to save ourselves. This is referred to as the “God Manifestation”.
    *]Baptism and other works are necessary for salvation.
    *]Hell is not eternal. The wicked are annihilated. Except for the resurrection there is no type of life after death.
    *]They are not to fellowship with any who do not hold to their doctrines.
    *]Jesus Christ was just an human being. His death on the cross was not substitutionary, does not atone for are sins, and is not sufficient for our salvation. He only died so that we could have an opportunity to be like him, he was only a representative, not a savior.
    *]The soul is not immortal, it ceases to exist after death.
    *]The Devil, fallen angels, and demons are not real. They are just a euphemism for sin and evil men.
 
No it doesn’t. Out of 50 occurences of apollumi in NT 26x it has to do with ‘loss/lose/lost’

eg,
ηλθεν γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ζητησαι και σωσαι το απολωλος.

old Zacchaeus was already annihilated?? Yet a candidate for salvation??..that makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

but it fits in well with your theology. Here everybody, this is what Christadelphians believe:

  1. *]You must become a Christadelphian and be baptized by them in order to have a chance at salvation.
    *]Jesus was the son of God, but not God in the flesh (denying the Trinity)
    *]The Holy Spirit is the radiant energy/power of God, not 3rd person of the Trinity, and he does not indwell the believer.
    *]Jesus was not born sinless. But we must achieve sinless perfection, like Christ did in order to save ourselves. This is referred to as the “God Manifestation”.
    *]Baptism and other works are necessary for salvation.
    *]Hell is not eternal. The wicked are annihilated. Except for the resurrection there is no type of life after death.
    *]They are not to fellowship with any who do not hold to their doctrines.
    *]Jesus Christ was just an human being. His death on the cross was not substitutionary, does not atone for are sins, and is not sufficient for our salvation. He only died so that we could have an opportunity to be like him, he was only a representative, not a savior.
    *]The soul is not immortal, it ceases to exist after death.
    *]The Devil, fallen angels, and demons are not real. They are just a euphemism for sin and evil men.

  1. So they are not Christians but simply a deviant cult. They obviously have no use for the Bible because none of their “beliefs” have any basis there.
 
No it doesn’t. Out of 50 occurences of apollumi in NT 26x it has to do with ‘loss/lose/lost’

eg,
ηλθεν γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ζητησαι και σωσαι το απολωλος.

old Zacchaeus was already annihilated?? Yet a candidate for salvation??..that makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

but it fits in well with your theology. Here everybody, this is what Christadelphians believe:

  1. *]You must become a Christadelphian and be baptized by them in order to have a chance at salvation.
    *]Jesus was the son of God, but not God in the flesh (denying the Trinity)
    *]The Holy Spirit is the radiant energy/power of God, not 3rd person of the Trinity, and he does not indwell the believer.
    *]Jesus was not born sinless. But we must achieve sinless perfection, like Christ did in order to save ourselves. This is referred to as the “God Manifestation”.
    *]Baptism and other works are necessary for salvation.
    *]Hell is not eternal. The wicked are annihilated. Except for the resurrection there is no type of life after death.
    *]They are not to fellowship with any who do not hold to their doctrines.
    *]Jesus Christ was just an human being. His death on the cross was not substitutionary, does not atone for are sins, and is not sufficient for our salvation. He only died so that we could have an opportunity to be like him, he was only a representative, not a savior.
    *]The soul is not immortal, it ceases to exist after death.
    *]The Devil, fallen angels, and demons are not real. They are just a euphemism for sin and evil men.

  1. I believe I have said that it also means to lose, i.e. to lose one’s life.

    Here is a correction to your list.
    1. You must believe in the Truth as taught by the apostles and be baptized into Christ. We are not so proud to believe that we are the only ones with the truth.
    2. He is salvation. Through his sacrifice, he fulfilled the Law and thus brought it to an end, opening the way to salvation for all mankind.
    I will say also this: Christ is the bridegroom and the Ecclesia is the bride. In Jewish wedding, the bridegroom pays a bride price for his bride. Afterwards, he leaves the bride for two years while the bride prepares herself for marriage. This is to test to see if she played the harlot and got pregnant. This is called the betrothal period.

    Christ is our bridegroom. The price he paid was not a price we had to pay. It was a price to purchase his friends, so that he and the saints may become one flesh and be saved through him. When he returns, he shall see who is the virgin and who is the harlot. He shall marry the virgin who kept his commandments of love. He shall castaway the harlot.

    “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13

    “The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.” Mark 2:20

    “I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.” 2 Cor 2:11

    “For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.” Eph 5:29-33

    “And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” 1 Cor 6:14-20

    The price was the death of Christ. Once we enter into the marriage contract through Baptism, we accept the death as our bride price, and put on Christ. We put off our former selves and put on Christ. We become of one spirit. Would Christ marry himself to a prositute? He shall join with the righteous in a unified spirit of peace, love, and joy.
 
So they are not Christians but simply a deviant cult. They obviously have no use for the Bible because none of their “beliefs” have any basis there.
Our beliefs have only basis there. Every single thing in which we believe is proved in Scripture time and again.
 
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:15

So we have immortal souls and are made to be eternal, without beginning or end like God? Now that does not make any sense.

Now God’s spirit is eternal and if we become one spiritually with God then we can say that we become a part of His eternal being. This explicates manifestation and emphasizes the purpose of the Father’s name. Our life shall be coupled with His life, which is eternal. He will be with us and in us for all time. But this is of a spiritual meat. Our actual lives or souls have a beginning, and if we are found worthy, will live forever.

Thus if you already have an immortal life or soul, then what is it that Christ promises? He is promising life and not death. Thus, if you are a dying soul as Solomon says we are or are we an immortal soul as Plato says we are. If Solomon is right, then we all die and need Christ in order to live. If the Gnostics are right, then we do not die but transform and we need Christ in order to attain a better plain of existence beyond this one.

I think I will side with Solomon. God gave him wisdom. I will trust in this wisdom. We all die and go to the grave, both the righteous and the unrighteous.

My Definition stands as written,
your verse - “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:15 - clearly Implies death & the soul’s ability to Perish .

Eternal life is clearly dependent upon Believing in “Him”. & then John 6 v28-29 that points out that the works of God that we are to do is to Believe On Him who sent Jesus.
So believing is a work according to Gospel scripture.

Now whether or not God created a grand pool of unnamed souls at the beginning of time or when ever &however has never been addressed by the Bible.

What we can imply from scripture is that at some point those “saved” souls will be removed from this time & space arena & join God in his eternal realm.

Myself I give a greater credence to those words of Christ than an apostle or others But I also that all of the bible in context knowing and trusting in God’s Promise to Protect His Church & its teachings.

Let us persevere unto death & be found worthy in His sight at the hour of our death.

Regards
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top