Eternal Security/ Faith Alone

[Qualiteee]

This is a posting that I made on another forum and I thought that it would be a good thought provoking introductory.

Eternal Security of the Believer. Let’s define BELIEVER…

Can we agree that a believer is one whom obviously believes, correct?

This occurs through faith. But let’s examine the biblical understanding again of faith.

Faith is necessary for salvation…Mark 16:16

Faith is dead without works…James 2:20

Faith must be a living “faith working through charity”…Galatians 5:6

Charity or love of God is not real unless it induces us to keep the Commandments;
“He that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected” 1 John 2:5

“He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me…” John 14:21

“If ye keep my commandments ye shall abide in my love…” John 15:10

Charity is necessary for salvation because it is connected with Faith…

So reasonably, when can deduce that to not keep the commandments is to be void of Charity as well as Faith which are both necessary for salvation!

Hope is necessary for salvation…

The sin of absolute assurance and presumption destroys hope…

Faith is said to be “the substance of things hoped for” (Hebrews 2:1), and without it “it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Obviously, therefore, hope is required for salvation with the same absolute necessity as faith.

Faith + Hope + Charity

We are saved by grace through faith…

Faith is what pleases God…

Faith is necessary for salvation…

Yet Faith is the “substance of things hoped for”…

Faith is therefore connected with Hope

Hope is necessary for salvation…

Authentic and real Faith is a “living faith [that] work through charity”…

Charity is love of God and love of neighbor by “keeping the commandments”, doing the acts of religion “almsgiving, prayer, fasting” doing “good works”

Charity is necessary for salvation…

We must:
“continue in well doing” Romans 2:7
“overcome” Revelation 2:11
“hold fast…and do not deny the faith” Revelation 2:13

Perseverance is necessary for salvation…

 

[Cat_Herder]

… Or else:

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[rcjones]

The sin of absolute assurance and presumption destroys hope…

Faith is said to be “the substance of things hoped for” (Hebrews 2:1), and without it “it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Obviously, therefore, hope is required for salvation with the same absolute necessity as faith.

This verse is used out of context.

The author uses nearly 30 terms loosely to identify the kingdom of God. Such as ‘the promise’, the day, the good things coming, the things hoped for, etc.

He also uses a pattern of speaking of a shadow versus a reality in order to show that the things the Hebrews lost by becoming Christians were only shadows of a greater reality in Christ.

Heb 11:1 cannot be decoupled from Hen 10:1 though many do it.

He 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, …
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance (reality) of things hoped for, …

The law was just a shadow of the kingdom of heaven and faith is the reality of it.

He then goes on and lists all those who built the kingdom by their faith, becoming building blocks of which Christ is the corner.

Those listed as being faithful were obedient to God in spite of ridicule, persecution and death because they believed God to be faithful to the promise he had made.

By this understanding, faith is obedience to God in spite of ridicule, persecution and death because God is faithful to the promise he had made.

 

[PLeeD]

You conveniently left out this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

*For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— not from works, so that no one can boast.
*

By that one verse of scripture we are clearly not saved by works.

We are saved by a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved by faith that works through love.

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[Nita]

You conveniently left out this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— not from works, so that no one can boast.

By that one verse of scripture we are clearly not saved by works.

We are saved by a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved by faith that works through love.

*"For **by grace you are saved *through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift…"

Note that the verse doesn’t say we are saved by (a certain kind of) faith – it specifically says we are “saved by grace” – thru faith. Our faith does not save us, but it is thru faith that we receive the grace that saves us.
(However, we can lose that saving grace thru willed, unrepented, serious sin.)

 

[Cat_Herder]

You conveniently left out this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— not from works, so that no one can boast.

By that one verse of scripture we are clearly not saved by works.

We are saved by a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved by faith that works through love.

I like your summary at the end, but I have to clarify that salvation is by grace alone, not faith alone or even faith that works through love alone (although that is certainly required to remain in grace). People can be saved without faith, for example infants, abortion victims, the mentally infirm and the invincibly ignorant.

 

[PLeeD]

Quite right! I should have said “through” instead of “by”. Let me restate;

We are saved through a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved through faith that works through love.

 

[PLeeD]

While thinking about this discussion, another verse of scripture popped into my head.

Luke 7:50 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”.

What are the implications of Jesus’ words here? The woman had completed no good works, but she loved Jesus, and He forgave her sins.

 

[ignatius777]

Quite right! I should have said “through” instead of “by”. Let me restate;

We are saved through a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved through faith that works through love.

So faith without works is deadand cant save you so works are NECESSARY but NOT SUFFICIENT for salvation. Amen you see the light!!!

 

[Church_Militant]

John Martignoni has a excellent Bible study on this. Once Saved Always Saved

His free MP3 download on this topic is Once Saved, Always Saved?

I recommend it.

Oh, and a lot of people seem to have missed Matthew 25:31-46.
[bibledrb]Matthew 25:31-46[/bibledrb]

 

[fhansen]

This is a posting that I made on another forum and I thought that it would be a good thought provoking introductory.

Eternal Security of the Believer. Let’s define BELIEVER…

Can we agree that a believer is one whom obviously believes, correct?

This occurs through faith. But let’s examine the biblical understanding again of faith.

Faith is necessary for salvation…Mark 16:16

Faith is dead without works…James 2:20

Faith must be a living “faith working through charity”…Galatians 5:6

Charity or love of God is not real unless it induces us to keep the Commandments;
“He that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected” 1 John 2:5

“He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me…” John 14:21

“If ye keep my commandments ye shall abide in my love…” John 15:10

Charity is necessary for salvation because it is connected with Faith…

So reasonably, when can deduce that to not keep the commandments is to be void of Charity as well as Faith which are both necessary for salvation!

Hope is necessary for salvation…

The sin of absolute assurance and presumption destroys hope…

Faith is said to be “the substance of things hoped for” (Hebrews 2:1), and without it “it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Obviously, therefore, hope is required for salvation with the same absolute necessity as faith.

Faith + Hope + Charity

We are saved by grace through faith…

Faith is what pleases God…

Faith is necessary for salvation…

Yet Faith is the “substance of things hoped for”…

Faith is therefore connected with Hope

Hope is necessary for salvation…

Authentic and real Faith is a “living faith [that] work through charity”…

Charity is love of God and love of neighbor by “keeping the commandments”, doing the acts of religion “almsgiving, prayer, fasting” doing “good works”

Charity is necessary for salvation…

We must:
“continue in well doing” Romans 2:7
“overcome” Revelation 2:11
“hold fast…and do not deny the faith” Revelation 2:13

Perseverance is necessary for salvation…

This is true, and God, through His grace-is necessary for our perseverance, holding fast, overcoming, continuing in well-doing, as well as our Charity, Hope, and Faith. God alone saves, and yet, He doesn’t do it without our cooperation.

 

[PLeeD]

So faith without works is deadand cant save you so works are NECESSARY but NOT SUFFICIENT for salvation. Amen you see the light!!!

Not sure what all the hand waving is about This is nothing different from what I’ve always believed, and also nothing different from what is taught in my church. Not all protestantism, or even most IMO, believe in OSAS.

It gets sticky when you start asking “what works?”. I think all action need to be viewed through the filter of love for neighbor. I think actions (good works) that don’t proceed from a spirit of love, done willingly, are useless. That is, if I do some charity work out of a sense of guilt or fear of eternal damnation, I’m no different than OT Jews living according to the law of Moses.

And then, I don’t even agree that works are NECESSARY to be saved. I believe we are saved before we even have a chance to contemplate good works. If I can give one example where a person is saved without good works, then the works are by definition not necessary to be saved. There are lots of examples where this would be true. I’ll point to the example of Jesus and the woman in my last post to make the point.

 

[Qualiteee]

You conveniently left out this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— not from works, so that no one can boast.

By that one verse of scripture we are clearly not saved by works.

We are saved by a certain kind of faith that manifests itself in good works according to God’s will, which is that we love our neighbor. In a word, we are saved by faith that works through love.

Your assertion that I convienently left out the Ephesians verse is comical.
I can equally say that you convienently, more so, left out the succeeding verse:

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians** 2:10**

By that one verse of scripture we are clearly not saved by works

What the the Ephesians passage speaks of is that we are saved by Grace, through faith. It does speak of ‘not of works lest any man should boast’ because what this is precisely referring to is the Initial Grace of God, which truly is a Gift!

His initiative towards us is absolutely gratuitous and is completely unearned, unmerited, undeserved and not owed.

However, God created us without us, yet he didn’t will to save us without us. This is why I’ve said for years that salvation is a collaborative effort between God and man.

We are saved by Grace through faith. But what is the definition of faith biblically?
Protestants love to quote the Ephesians verse, as you did, as well as Romans 1:17 and as a Catholic, I happily quote these also, though, not cherry pickingly, for I also include many other important verses at the same time.

“…but faith which worketh by love” Galatians 5:6

The proper doctrine is that we are saved by grace through faith, which is a living faith that works through charity.
And with this, [charity] I’ve already pointed out with the 1 John verses that clearly indicate that the charity toward God is rooted within the “keeping of his commands [or word]” and the charity toward God is connected with love toward man. These two, all the law and the prophets hang on.
The key is Love. By keeping the Decalouge we simultaneously love both God and man as we should, and these are requisites for salvation. Almsgiving, prayer and fasting are entailed as well.

This is what Catholics mean when we speak of works, we are speaking of works of charity i.e. acts or deeds that show our love of God primarily and love of fellow man.

Our works are intrinsic and vital to our salvation for the Sacred Scripture speaks of them following us into heaven:

“Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth; Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them” Revelation 14:13

Furthermore I’m shocked at how Sola Fide has survived this long despite this one passage alone [amongst numerous others]:

“…and though I have all faith…and have not charity, I am nothing” 1 Corinthians 13:2

Whenever I hear a protestant declare that works are not necessary for salvation, it’s tantamount to them saying that love [charity] is not necessary for salvation.

The reality is that Salvation is both a Gift and a Reward; both are not antonymous, but rather quite compatible, much as how Law and Grace are, when explained and understood properly.

It’s all based upon a promise.

God graciously made a promise, that if we follow his law, live pious and righteous good lives, by the assitance of his grace, that he would reward us with eternal life.
So you see that the gift of God is his initial graciousness to even offer the promise in the first place. Yet after the promise is made, he will reward us, not in the order of commutative justice, but due to his veracity and fidelity by binding of himself to that promise.

“…he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him” James 1:12

And again, how does one love God? By keeping his commands and loving his neighbor as himself.

Salutary acts can in virtue of the Divine justice give the right to an eternal reward, this is possible only because they themselves have their root in gratuitous grace, and consequently are of their very nature dependent ultimately on grace, as the Council of Trent emphatically declared.

The problem is whenever anyone suggests that faith is the only neccesity for salvation. That is completely unbiblical; for as I pointed out there are many requirements for salvation, initially, maintainingly, and ultimately.

 

[Qualiteee]

While thinking about this discussion, another verse of scripture popped into my head.

Luke 7:50 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.".

What are the implications of Jesus’ words here? The woman had completed no good works, but she loved Jesus, and He forgave her sins.

This is another example of not including the entirety of the verse…

It is not her faith alone that is the reason that she is saved, but rather her love and faith:

“Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much…” Luke 7:47

And what exactly was her love?

“…but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head…but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet…but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.” Luke 7:44-46

 

[Qualiteee]

This verse is used out of context.

The author uses nearly 30 terms loosely to identify the kingdom of God. Such as ‘the promise’, the day, the good things coming, the things hoped for, etc.

He also uses a pattern of speaking of a shadow versus a reality in order to show that the things the Hebrews lost by becoming Christians were only shadows of a greater reality in Christ.

Heb 11:1 cannot be decoupled from Hen 10:1 though many do it.

He 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, …
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance (reality) of things hoped for, …

The law was just a shadow of the kingdom of heaven and faith is the reality of it.

He then goes on and lists all those who built the kingdom by their faith, becoming building blocks of which Christ is the corner.

Those listed as being faithful were obedient to God in spite of ridicule, persecution and death because they believed God to be faithful to the promise he had made.

By this understanding, faith is obedience to God in spite of ridicule, persecution and death because God is faithful to the promise he had made.

How is it out of context? Faith, it says is the substance of things hoped for.
Furthermore, the numerous passages that speak of perseverance, continuing, keeping, all of these naturally entail and engender hope.

Even the word waiting can be applied:

“…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption…For we are saved by hope…” Romans 8:23-24

My intial posting is partially based off of St.Paul’s words:

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity…but the greatest of these is charity.” 1 Corinthians 13:13

The same way that I showed the origin with faith and the connectivity thereby with hope and charity, though nevertheless, the superiority of charity, is expressed quite nicely in the above verse I feel.

 

[mackbrislawn]

While thinking about this discussion, another verse of scripture popped into my head.

Luke 7:50 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.".

What are the implications of Jesus’ words here? The woman had completed no good works, but she loved Jesus, and He forgave her sins.

Actually, she did a lot of work beforehand, she wet his feet with her tears, wiped them with her hair, kissed them, anointed them, Jesus said, “For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much, but he who is forgiven little, loves little. And He said to her, your sins have been forgiven…Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Jesus specifically said the reason her sins were forgiven was because of her actions. Why, then, can He also say her faith saved her? Because without her faith, she would not have done the things necessary. She had to act upon her faith and love, but because she did act, it is proper to say her faith saved her.

A similar incident occurs in the case of the woman that was bleeding. She thought to herself, “If I can only touch the hem of his garment, I shall be cured.” So she did, and power flowed from Jesus and she was cured. Again, Jesus said, “Your faith has saved you.” Well, what was it? Work, power, or faith? Scripture itself is specific in saying it was the power of Jesus that did it! And she thought it was her work. So why could Jesus say it was her faith? Because without her faith she would not have done the work of elbowing her way through the crowd, approaching Jesus, and getting up enough nerve to touch his cloak. Jesus does it, but it starts with faith, the first link in the chain. Faith is the first essential ingredient. But, without action and love, it is dead.

 

[Timonator348]

I think one of the best examples in Scripture that we do not have eternal security is
Romans 11:17-23:
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

Even the Jews, God’s chosen people, did not have eternal security and we are all subject to being cut off from the olive tree of Christ but he has the power to graft us in again. Just as Catholics believe we can be in Christ Jesus through baptism, be cut off by sinning and then grafted back in by being reconciled to God through confession.

 

[Bookcat]

A must read from Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html