Eternal security?

[E.E.N.S]

I just wanted to move this topic to a new thread (it was lodged halfway down in a thread about Mary.)

**

Vincent1560:
*Sounds like a plan. How about we tackle eternal security first, and later what is necessary for salvation? ***

Okay let’s! I want to try and show salvation as not a one time event (OSAS), but an on-going process, and I will try to show you salvation as a past/present/future event(s)…consider these passages:

“Have been saved” (Past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace. Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/images/horbar.gif

“Being saved” (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process. 1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/images/horbar.gif

“Will be saved” (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives. Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Here’s a few more:

2Thess 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not obey the gospel

**1Cor 6:9-10 **those doing wicked deeds will not inherit the kingdom of God

**Gal 5:19-21 **I warn you, those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom

1John 5:16-17 There is a mortal sin that leads to death.

Matt 12:31,32 anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be saved

**2 Peter 2:20-22 **if they come to know the Lord and are then entangled in sin, they are worse off then they were as unbelievers

John 15:4-6 Remain in me, and I will remain in you (notice the order)

Heb 9:27 We are judged after our death.

Heb 10:18 Once forgiven there is no further sacrifice for sin

Heb 10:26 If we keep on sinning after coming to knowledge….

 

[Dan-Man916]

**

1Cor 10:12** Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

Matt 19:16-17 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 10:25-28 “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?” He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

John 5:24 “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.”

John 6:54"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day."

Matt 10:22 “You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.”

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Heb 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[blackfish152]

Recently I was chatting to a few protestants, and one of the girls said she was really puzzled by the issue of my salvation.

I replied that I was saved in baptism, and I am confident of my Present salvation and that I hoped to be saved at the end of my life.

one of the girls was very impressed by the factI was so very biblical in expressing salvation in all 3 tenses!

but the other one said that such a concept of hoping for future salvation is not mentioned in scripture.

would you guys happen to have the exact quotes for this?

for this would then show that there iis also no absolute assurance but a confident hope!

many thanks

m

 

[E.E.N.S]

blackfish152:

Recently I was chatting to a few protestants, and one of the girls said she was really puzzled by the issue of my salvation.

I replied that I was saved in baptism, and I am confident of my Present salvation and that I hoped to be saved at the end of my life.

one of the girls was very impressed by the factI was so very biblical in expressing salvation in all 3 tenses!

but the other one said that such a concept of hoping for future salvation is not mentioned in scripture.

would you guys happen to have the exact quotes for this?

for this would then show that there iis also no absolute assurance but a confident hope!

many thanks

m

Matt 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Rom 13:11 Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;

1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Tim 2:11-12 The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

There are more, but I have to get some work done for now.

 

[Vincent1560]

Hey, its me again. I have a question about the Catholic conception of the role works play in slavation. My understanding of works is that they are not necessary to salvtion, but are rather indicative of saving faith. In other words it would not be logical to expect faith to exist in the absence of good works and a reformed/reforming life, hence why death bed repentence and salvation is possible. I do think however that good works can get one “increased rewards” for lack of better terminology, because one who is a more committed servant is more able to appreciate and experience the fullness of God.

My understanding of Catholic theology is you believe both faith and works are necessary for salvation such that works are a component of salvation and not just an indication of saving faith.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

Hey, its me again. I have a question about the Catholic conception of the role works play in slavation. My understanding of works is that they are not necessary to salvtion, but are rather indicative of saving faith. In other words it would not be logical to expect faith to exist in the absence of good works and a reformed/reforming life, hence why death bed repentence and salvation is possible. I do think however that good works can get one “increased rewards” for lack of better terminology, because one who is a more committed servant is more able to appreciate and experience the fullness of God.

My understanding of Catholic theology is you believe both faith and works are necessary for salvation such that works are a component of salvation and not just an indication of saving faith.

It seems to me that you are somewhat splitting hairs here, as you are also saying that faith without works is dead (if a living faith is indicated by works), after all it is grace that saves.

Words mean little, actions speak volumes.

 

[Vincent1560]

E.E.N.S.:

It seems to me that you are somewhat splitting hairs here, as you are also saying that faith without works is dead (if a living faith is indicated by works), after all it is grace that saves.

Words mean little, actions speak volumes.

I don’t think it is splitting hairs, there is a key difference. It would be like a Protestant saying that what manner Christ is in the Eucharist is splitting hairs. The key difference is that for Protestants (of conservative/evangelical origin) it is by grace through faith alone that saves. The number or type of works do not earn anything, they are just a result of the faith. If this is not a significant difference, then the Catholic doctrine of penance would be meaningless. At least as I see it penance is a process by which Catholics do works inorder to earn forgiveness of sins (please correct me if I am wrong, I am basing this on empirical observation and don’t want to accidently mischaracterize what is going on). On the otherhand, protestants who believe works do not affect forgivness of sin, regard penance as unnecessary.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I don’t think it is splitting hairs, there is a key difference. It would be like a Protestant saying that what manner Christ is in the Eucharist is splitting hairs. The key difference is that for Protestants (of conservative/evangelical origin) it is by grace through faith alone that saves. The number or type of works do not earn anything, they are just a result of the faith. If this is not a significant difference, then the Catholic doctrine of penance would be meaningless. At least as I see it penance is a process by which Catholics do works inorder to earn forgiveness of sins (please correct me if I am wrong, I am basing this on empirical observation and don’t want to accidently mischaracterize what is going on). On the otherhand, protestants who believe works do not affect forgivness of sin, regard penance as unnecessary.

This is what it seems like you are saying:

(Common protestant): Salvation = grace through faith (but faith must have works to be living faith)

Well, Catholics believe pretty much the same thing; the Church doesn’t teach that works earn salvation, but without works faith is dead.

You say works play no part in salvation, however, on the same note you say that faith is dead without works…basically so are saying the same things as Catholics; faith and works cannot be seperated, lest you have a dead faith.

 

[jimmy]

Works play several roles. First they help to make you more disposed to grace by breaking habits and making you stronger. They train the will. Second, they are a show of your love for your neighbor and ultimately God. In a deaper sense, they are your love. Not, mearly just a sign of your love, but the actual thing. You act out of love, not to show your love on this level.

Further, the point we live through this life rather than God just baptizing us and judging us is it is the road to perfection. We become perfect by immitating Christ and by following his path. That is done through good works and avoiding evil works. The goal is not only to get rid of bad habits, but to learn to have perfect love, the love that only God can give.

Salvation and justification are processes that take your whole life. We continue to be justified as we grow in virtue. We were saved yesterday, we are being saved today, and we will be saved tomorrow.

Paul tells us if we have faith to move mountains but have no charity, we are nothing. He also tells us we were made for works. James tells us that faith without works is dead. Jesus tells us we will be judged according to our works. It is throughout the whole bible and can’t be missed.

It is easy to imagine someone that has faith but doesn’t do good works. Do you sin? If so, you are doing evil works, that is part of it. I sin often and far too much. My job is to accept the grace of God by avoiding sin(a work in itself) and doing good.

Further, God does not give us graces solely for ourselves. He gives them for the rest of the body of the Church. I am meant to use what I am given to help my neighbor, not myself. If I am given the charism of preaching, it is for the good of my fellow Christians. We are one Church, not 2 billion seperate churches all out for our own good. We are working for the good of the whole Church.

 

[Vincent1560]

I guess the difference is how we view the works. For instance in philosophical terms it would be the difference between necessary and accidental properties. For instance a human body always exerts a gravitational force as an accident of it being a body, but despite the fact that every human body exerts a gravitational force, it is not necessary, i.e. a human body would not cease to be a human body if it did not have a gravitational force. A philosopher who disagreed would say having a gravitational force is a necessary property and that without it a human body would not be a human body. In terms of salvation I guess it is a matter of perspective. I view it as a free gift that I have done nothing to earn and can do nothing to be worthy of. I desire to try and live according to the will of the gift giver not to earn his gift, for he has already given it, but rather because I love him and trust that living in keeping with his commandments is the best possible way to live life. On the other hand someone (not necessarily a Catholic becasue I do not fully understand how you view this concept and don’t wish to make assumptions) who views salvation as something that they can become meritous of has a different world view. This is not to say their works are selfish, but rather they view their works as earning their way to salvation and their sins as deductions along this path. Such an outlook is unnecessarily burdensome and fails to recognize that Christ will accept you just as you are and that you need not become perfect for him, but rather must instead allow him to perfect you. This is why I view our previous discussion as not being a matter of small importance, because even though both views acknowledge the presence of faith and works, differing views on what the later accomplishes have significant consequences in terms of worldviews and understandings of what God’s grace accomplishes.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I guess the difference is how we view the works…and understandings of what God’s grace accomplishes.

Vincent, notice how we always deviate from the thread topic?

A note from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1990 **Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

**1993 **Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.

 

[E.E.N.S]

It also reminds me of Matt 7:21, (to the objection that our actions are of no consequence; Jesus did all that’s necessary for our salvation.)

7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

We must do the will of the Father to enter heaven. Professing Jesus as Lord isn’t enough. Even those that work miracles by the name of Jesus and who preach the Gospel in His name are not assured a place in heaven. Through false teachings, the devil has convinced many people today that they have a “free ticket” to heaven. This is NOT biblical and those who believe this theology are in jeopardy of losing their salvation.

 

[Sugar_Ray]

Vincent:

Karl Keating wrote a book called What Catholics Really Believe…you should give it a read.

He explains faith and works this way (I’m paraphrasing of course)

Salvation is a gift of grace that cannot be earned. However the gift needs to be protected from our salvations enemies. We protect the gift by responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit to do the works that God prepared in advance for us to do. When we do this we grow spiritually and make “our calling and election sure” (2Pet 1:10).

Have you ever known anyone who has fallen away? Most likely it wasn’t overnight. It was slowly over time as bad habits (skipping Church, not reading the bible, neglecting acts of charity) made their heart hard. Eventually they turn away altogether having rejected God’s grace day after day after day.

And so we are saved by grace and works.

Hope this helps.

 

[steveroz]

Vincent1560:

At least as I see it penance is a process by which Catholics do works inorder to earn forgiveness of sins (please correct me if I am wrong, I am basing this on empirical observation and don’t want to accidently mischaracterize what is going on). On the otherhand, protestants who believe works do not affect forgivness of sin, regard penance as unnecessary.

This is a very common (even among Catholics) and dangerous misunderstanding of the meaning and purpose of penance. Penance does not “earn forgiveness of sins” - only God, through the redemptive sacrifice of His only son can forgive sins. However, even after the guilt of sin is remitted by God’s forgiveness, there remains a temporal punishment or consequence to sin. In much the same way that a parent forgives a child for breaking family rules, yet still inflicts a punishment, God’s forgiveness of our sin does not mean sin has no consequence.

Our sins have a ripple effect throughout God’s creation. There is no way to know how many people may be indirectly effected by the grumpy good-bye I gave my wife this morning. Penance is our way of adding back to the spiritual goodness of the universe as a means to make up for what we and others take away by our sin. We are all connected in Christ’s body. There is no such thing as a victimless sin - ALL sin damages the body of Christ.

Penance is a means of repairing the damage of sin. Forgiveness for the guilt of sin is the domain of God alone. Without His grace we are powerless to “earn” it.

Peace to all.

 

[E.E.N.S]

steveroz:

This is a very common (even among Catholics) and dangerous misunderstanding of the meaning and purpose of penance. Penance does not “earn forgiveness of sins” - only God, through the redemptive sacrifice of His only son can forgive sins. However, even after the guilt of sin is remitted by God’s forgiveness, there remains a temporal punishment or consequence to sin. In much the same way that a parent forgives a child for breaking family rules, yet still inflicts a punishment, God’s forgiveness of our sin does not mean sin has no consequence.

Our sins have a ripple effect throughout God’s creation. There is no way to know how many people may be indirectly effected by the grumpy good-bye I gave my wife this morning. Penance is our way of adding back to the spiritual goodness of the universe as a means to make up for what we and others take away by our sin. We are all connected in Christ’s body. There is no such thing as a victimless sin - ALL sin damages the body of Christ.

Penance is a means of repairing the damage of sin. Forgiveness for the guilt of sin is the domain of God alone. Without His grace we are powerless to “earn” it.

Peace to all.

Which goes hand-in-hand with the doctrine of purgatory.

 

[steveroz]

E.E.N.S.:

Which goes hand-in-hand with the doctrine of purgatory.

Which really has to go on another thread!!

 

[Vincent1560]

steveroz:

This is a very common (even among Catholics) and dangerous misunderstanding of the meaning and purpose of penance. Penance does not “earn forgiveness of sins” - only God, through the redemptive sacrifice of His only son can forgive sins. However, even after the guilt of sin is remitted by God’s forgiveness, there remains a temporal punishment or consequence to sin. In much the same way that a parent forgives a child for breaking family rules, yet still inflicts a punishment, God’s forgiveness of our sin does not mean sin has no consequence.

Our sins have a ripple effect throughout God’s creation. There is no way to know how many people may be indirectly effected by the grumpy good-bye I gave my wife this morning. Penance is our way of adding back to the spiritual goodness of the universe as a means to make up for what we and others take away by our sin. We are all connected in Christ’s body. There is no such thing as a victimless sin - ALL sin damages the body of Christ.

Penance is a means of repairing the damage of sin. Forgiveness for the guilt of sin is the domain of God alone. Without His grace we are powerless to “earn” it.

Peace to all.

Thank you that clears alot up for me. I have just seen so many shows that depict Catholics as saying, “Ok if I do sin x I need to do 3 hail marys and an our father, but if I do sin y which is slightly worse I need to up it to 7 hail Marys and 4 Our Fathers etc.” that I got a false view of the significance.

 

[Vincent1560]

E.E.N.S.:

It also reminds me of Matt 7:21, (to the objection that our actions are of no consequence; Jesus did all that’s necessary for our salvation.)

7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

We must do the will of the Father to enter heaven. Professing Jesus as Lord isn’t enough. Even those that work miracles by the name of Jesus and who preach the Gospel in His name are not assured a place in heaven. Through false teachings, the devil has convinced many people today that they have a “free ticket” to heaven. This is NOT biblical and those who believe this theology are in jeopardy of losing their salvation.

I think this brings it back to our discussion about once saved always saved. Lol, we have come full circle.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I think this brings it back to our discussion about once saved always saved. Lol, we have come full circle.

I do what I can.