Eternal Security

[bpbasilphx]

Might I suggest something?

Our security is in Christ Who is eternal.

There’s a big difference between this and putting your confidence in your own faith, or even worse, one time act of faith.

But it’s apparently too subtle for a lot of people to get.

 

[Pax]

Fisher,

After an exchange of scripture verses, Pixie Dust responded by saying:

Here we go, round and round…

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Interestingly enough she made the correct call as you have both continued in this repartee and volley of verses. Please be advised that your position has no weight or validity if it does not encompass and include the verses quoted by Pixie Dust. You must show that your doctrinal position is compatible with all of scripture and not simply the verses you have chosen. Thus far you have not done so.

 

[Fisher]

Romans 8:38-39: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor power, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This is the inspired answer to the question of verse 35: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” That is, once we have been justified by faith, who is there, what power is there, that can separate from the love of Christ? And the answer, how full, how clear, not a shadow, not a doubt, not a question left, when the apostle says that neither death nor life shall separate! Can you think of anything which is neither included in death nor in life? Neither death nor life shall separate!

John 10:27-30: ”My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

People say, “If you preach this doctrine of the eternal security of the believer, men will say, ‘Well, then it doesn’t make any difference what I do, I will get to heaven anyway.’” It makes a tremendous difference what you do. If you do not behave yourself, it shows that you are not a real Christian. I know that a real Christian may fail, but the difference can be seen in Peter and Judas. Peter failed, and failed terribly, but he was genuine, and one look from Jesus sent him out weeping bitterly; his heart was broken to think that he had so dishonored his Lord. But Judas companied with the Lord almost three-and-a-half years and was a devil all the time; he was a thief and was seeking his own interest. He was even made the treasurer of that company and he held the bag, but we read, “He bare [away] what was put therein” (John 12:6), as this has been literally translated. At last remorse overtook him, not genuine repentance, and what was the result? He went and hanged himself. He was never a child of God. There is a great difference, you see, between a Christian and a false professor.

 

[Pax]

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A Gift Has No Strings Attached
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This part of your post is true. The truth of the statement, however, does not help your case.

Please be advised that God does not force someone to have faith. As you’ve said, “faith is a gift.” Likewise, we are not forced to keep the gift of faith and we can turn away from the gracious gifts given to us. God gave us free will and he will not remove it from us. He allows us to choose Him or to choose ourselves. Our choice is not automatically in cement. God’s grace enables us to believe, to love, and to obey Him, but we are free to reject these gifts at anytime.

That is what it really means to say, “there are no strings attached.”

 

[Pax]

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John 10:27-30: ”My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
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Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

 

[Pax]

…
People say, “If you preach this doctrine of the eternal security of the believer, men will say, ‘Well, then it doesn’t make any difference what I do, I will get to heaven anyway.’” It makes a tremendous difference what you do. If you do not behave yourself, it shows that you are not a real Christian. I know that a real Christian may fail, but the difference can be seen in Peter and Judas. Peter failed, and failed terribly, but he was genuine, and one look from Jesus sent him out weeping bitterly; his heart was broken to think that he had so dishonored his Lord. But Judas companied with the Lord almost three-and-a-half years and was a devil all the time; he was a thief and was seeking his own interest. He was even made the treasurer of that company and he held the bag, but we read, “He bare [away] what was put therein” (John 12:6), as this has been literally translated. At last remorse overtook him, not genuine repentance, and what was the result? He went and hanged himself. He was never a child of God. There is a great difference, you see, between a Christian and a false professor.

You are only partially correct when it comes to Judas. Judas was in fact given salvation just as the other apostles were. We know this by way of scripture. Scripture never says that “Judas was a devil all the time” as you have claimed.

My previous post shows that Jesus had kept Judas under his protection along with the other apostles. Moreover, using your formulation of “saved by faith alone” and “OSAS” we would have to conclude from scripture that Judas was saved by faith and therefore must be in heaven. I make this statement because in John 2 we read about the miracle Jesus worked at the marriage feast of Cana. At the end of the narrative in John 2:11 its says:

“This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples **believed **in him.”

Clearly, Judas believed and was therefore saved by Protestant definitions. Judas is either “once saved always saved” or he later lost his salvation by “betraying” his Lord and Savior. Personally, I think it is the latter and I think scripture makes this quite clear.

 

[Pax]

If only those who endure to the end are truly saved, as is eternal security according to the Lordship Salvationist, then how is assurance even possible? According to them, it isn’t. The only assurance of persevering is to persevere! What they are attempting to do is keep the believer in a place of doubt so that, motivated by fear, they will do good works. But is this really their aim? Surely we have been freed from sin but there is a huge difference between thinking I am free from sin so therefore I do not sin and being free from sin because I have died to the fact that I do sin. The former is a delusion and the latter the only way to godliness sinful man has ever known for we were crucified with Christ and our sin dealt with by Him who said, “It is finished!” Place a man under the principle of law (do this and then I will do that) and you will get nothing but more sin – “for the strength of sin is the law” (1 Cor 15:56). Perhaps it could be said that this is, more accurately, their true goal for false doctrine inevitably begets false practice.
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For a believer to say, “Am I really saved?” is to say, “Did Jesus really die for my sins?”

First of all, it is necessary for you to argue against Catholic teaching as opposed to something else. I am not at all certain that you understand the Catholic position. Please be advised that Catholic have an assurance of salvation, but the assurance is not the same as that found in OSAS. We do not have a metaphysical assurance/absolute certainty. Instead, we have a moral certainty based on God’s promises concerning salvation. Only God knows who is and who is not saved.

You are wrong about freedom from sin. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the freedom given to us is “freedom from commiting sin.” I will show this by way of scripture.

Freedom from sin by grace

John 8: 31-36
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, "You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6: 6
We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:14-16
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 Jn 3:4-9
Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

Acts 13:39
by this Jesus everyone who believes **is set free from all those sins **from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

1 Peter 4:1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God.

Please note that none of these verses mean that we will never sin. When examining the Greek for example in 1 Jn 3:4-9, it becomes clear that the apostle is talking about “continuous sin or a sinful life style.” Protestant commentaries make this very point. A christian might commit minor sins and even possibly a erious sin. These sins must be confessed and there must be true repentence. John’s letters address this point and I can give the chapters and verses if needed.

Catholic doctrine teaches that we are saved by grace alone. Our faith and works are all by way of God’s grace and all of the glory goes to God.

 

[Pax]

Fisher,

Please be advised that Catholics believe that we are saved by grace alone by way of the merits of Jesus passion, death, and resurrection, through faith and works but not by faith alone.

The apostle James says we are not saved by faith alone. Eph 2:8-10 is the perfect bridge between what Paul says and what James says. Paul argues that we are not saved by works of law. He even tells us why we are not saved by works of law. The Law only pointed out sin. The Law did not give us power to overcome sin and to do God’s will. Grace, on the other hand, is the great enabler. Scripture speaks over and over again about the power of grace and what it does for the believer. By grace the Christian believes and obeys. By grace the Christian places their hope in Christ and by grace the Christian is able to love God and love his neighbor.

Eph 2:8-10 says:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

This passage teaches us what I have said above. Verse ten is the verse typically overlooked by non-Catholic Christians. That verse makes it clear that when we are justified by God’s grace, we are simultaneously created in Christ Jesus for good works. Moreover, God prepared these works in advance of our justification. Likewise, we are to walk in the good works that “God created in advance.”

Scripture says the following in connection to this:

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Phill 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; **for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. **

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

1 Peter 4:10-11
Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from

 

[nonsumd]

In the not too distant past, I’ve burned a lot of hours on the internet arguing against OSAS (or “perseverance of the elect,” as my particular interlocutor preferred to call it – he didn’t seem to like the phrase “OSAS” though he believed it), so I am not going to reinvent the wheel that fellow Catholics here have so ably presented here.

OSAS can only be supported by interpreting certain verses in a certain way and ignoring other verses altogether.

Isn’t it odd how modernity, which we generally associate with “liberation,” actually works to deny the existence of human free will (to choose evil over good), so consistently asserted by Catholicism? Is perhaps the same impulse (to evade the moral responsibilities that come with God’s gift of free will) behind the invention – at the dawn of modernity – of the doctrine of OSAS?

It is not easy to accept that both ideas are true at the same time: that we are saved by grace alone and that our free will must cooperate with grace. Our free will to conform to God’s will is itself a working of His grace, and yet it is still our free will.

Who has greater security? One who believes that salvation is a process, and as such a path that can be strayed from? Or one who believes salvation is accomplished in an instant and, spending his life falling back into sin, with every sin doubts whether he has truly been saved? Is repentance once and for all? Is it in itself capable of removing the ability (free will) to sin again?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

According to Titus 1:2, God cannot lie!

God promised in Romans 10:13 to save me if I simply called upon Jesus’ name to save me and forgive my sins. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

What would you say if I were to give you a Christmas present, but then tell you that I’m going to be watching you over the next year to see if your good enough to keep it? If your not good enough I’m going to take away your GIFT. Would that make any sense to you? Of course not, you’d say I’d been laying out in the sun too long. You’d say I was crazy! A “gift” is NOT a gift if there are ANY strings attached to it. A genuine gift is unconditional. God is not a con artist, He doesn’t give one day to take the next. The concept of losing one’s salvation is flawed in so many ways. I mean, at what point would a person lose it? How much sin is too much? Where would you cross the saved/unsaved line? The whole idea of losing one’s eternal security is preposterous. How can a person have eternal security if no one can be eternally secure? It just doesn’t add up. Let the Scriptures be your guide.

Basically - ​

God is God - not man

So:

• God is a Saviour
• • a *mighty *Saviour
• He* insists* again, again,again, again, & again, & again (but you get the idea )
• that He is faithful
• which is what makes Him so extremely different from man
• who is faithless
• & forgets God
• to say God is not faithful to His Word, is to call God a liar
• • it is to attribute to Him a characteristic of the devil
• But God has gone out of His way to prove that He is is good, faithful, gracious, & delights to show mercy; what more could He have done than to become sin & die on the Cross for us ?
• One would think that to do more than that is beyond even God; yet He is given us His own Spirit, & many other good things besides.
• As if that were not more than enough proof for us of the infinite Might, covenant-faithfulness, & totally committed love of God, we have the words of Christ in the Gospel & the teaching of the rest of the NT, to prove (if proof were needed) that as with the Father, so with the Son & the Spirit - “no one can pluck us from His Hand”; “nothing shall separate us from the Love of Christ”; “the Spirit is the pledge of our inheritance” - the first installment of what is to come.
• ES is good news, of the lengths to which God will go for His elect - its character fits with what else we can know of Him, not least through the Bible.
  Granted, there are are difficulties - but they are no greater that the Biblical & other difficulties in believing such “blasphemous” doctrines as that Jesus is God, or is sinless, or that God is a Trinity of co-equal Divine Persons. It, & they, stand on a level.
  Eternal security is founded on Who God is, & on what He has done for us. If it is not true - why should we believe anything else about Him , such as that He is merciful, or all-mighty ?

There is a huge amount of evidence, as much from experience as any disproof of eternal security is said to be, that God is not almighty, or that Jesus was horribly deluded - if these difficulties from experience prove nothing against faith in God & Jesus, why should the “disproofs” from experience be fatal to belief in ES ? If Jesus is God Incarnate despite all the counter-evidence, ES is need not be “disproved” by counter-evidence either. God has given His pledged word, sworn by Himself no less, that He is faithful. He cannot lie, or prove false. He has sworn, & He will not retract, & His word does not return to Him empty.

“If they will not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe though one were to rise from the dead” - & the OT is full of God’s protestations of His faithful love. The Resurrection is evidence of ES - it shows how God is faithful, that He is not “all talk”. “All Your actions show Your Wisdom & Love” - the Liturgy of the Mass also supports this belief about God, & so, supports what requires ES to be true.

It is man the sinner who breaks covenant - & God Who is ever-true to it, by showing chesed, (= covenant-love, grace). God is very zealous for His Name, & avenges wrongs done to it; & his Name would be compromised utterly if He broke His word. He Who can do all things cannot do that, for that would be to deny Himself - & that, God cannot do. If He, the almighty Saving God, the Divine Redeemer & Mediator, can allow those who come to Him to fall from His Hand, then His word is false. The heavens will wear out before that happens.

God is boxed in - He has left no room for Him not to be a totally gracious, faithful, almighty, saving, Kinsman-Redeemer God. His faithfulness in assuring us of eternal security is what counts - ES is not founded on human ability or faithfulness (!!!) but on His. So the difficulties count for nothing. To Him be all the Glory !

 

[nonsumd]

Fisher and Gottle of Geer,

How do you reconcile “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” in a Pauline epistle with “not everyone who calls to me and says ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven”?

We do have eternal security in God’s promises: He will not take back the gift that He has given us. But that does not mean it is impossible for us to give up or lose through neglect that which God has freely given us.

It’s not a question of God’s love being “conditional,” but rather of salvation being what it is, something that cannot be said to be complete until a soul has through God’s grace persevered through life’s challenges and temptations. How can “being saved” (in a definitive, irreversible sense) coexist with continuing to sin?

Paul’s “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – that does not sound like OSAS to me.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Might I suggest something?

Our security is in Christ Who is eternal.

There’s a big difference between this and putting your confidence in your own faith, or even worse, one time act of faith.

But it’s apparently too subtle for a lot of people to get.

Our security is in Christ - not in any act of ours, however good. It is in Christ, and in nothing short of Him - however weak it may be. He is Our Surety, our only Hope, our only Stronghold: it is strictly accurate to say that without Him, we are nothing. It is He, not we at all, Who grants, or rather, Is, Our Security; so we are not relying on anything originating in us.​

Since we are no better in origin than those without Christ, to boast of our own strength as the source of our salvation would be senseless: we do not have any to boast of - all that we have, we have as a gift, from God. And that includes every instant in our salvation. As that is the good work of God, He Who has begun it is not going to quit it before He has finished it - to leave work undone is not how He acts, but how we act.

So all boasting by man is totally & eternally excluded - we can boast of Christ, His grace, His Gospel, His Cross, His mercy to us sinners, & other such good things: but not of ourselves. What is there in sin to boast of ? But in Christ, we have one motive upon another to trust in Him, not by our our strength, but, as always, by His grace, alone & in all things.

 

[nonsumd]

Romans 8:38-39: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor power, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This is the inspired answer to the question of verse 35: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?”

As I interpret these verses, what Paul is saying is that no force external to himself has the power to separate me from God, but note Paul does not say that something inside himself, namely his own willfulness, does not have that power to separate him from God (and in many other verses Paul explicitly says that his own weaknesses have precisely that power).

With the help of God’s grace, we are to unite our will to His will, not presume that God will remove our free will.

Judas despaired because he could not accept his own weakness; he did not have the humility to let God’s grace in. Peter betrayed Our Lord, yet he had the humility to trust in His promises and seek forgiveness. It’s not a question of Peter “having being saved” and Judas “not having truly being saved” when they sinned. They both strayed, one came back, one didn’t. Is it so hard to understand?

 

[Fisher]

Please note that none of these verses mean that we will never sin. When examining the Greek for example in 1 Jn 3:4-9, it becomes clear that the apostle is talking about “continuous sin or a sinful life style.” Protestant commentaries make this very point. A christian might commit minor sins and even possibly a erious sin. These sins must be confessed and there must be true repentence. John’s letters address this point and I can give the chapters and verses if needed.

God saw all your sins, and He laid upon Jesus all your iniquity. Therefore, when you trusted Him, you were justified freely from all things. Do you say, “Does it make no difference then if a believer sins?” That is another question, and it would take a whole evening to go into that, but here is the point: the moment you trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior, your responsibility as a sinner having to do with the God of judgment is ended for eternity, but that same moment your responsibility as a child having to do with a Father in heaven begins. Now if as a child you should sin against your Father, God will have to deal with you about that, but as a father and not as a judge. That is a line of truth that stands by itself and does not contradict what I am saying. It explains some things that bewilder people when this doctrine is brought before them.

you talk bout continuous sin I don t know you, but you know your self ,so how many times do you sin, and when is to much sin going to get you unsaved ?

You can know 100 precent to day you are going to Heaven.

5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the** record **that God gave of his Son.

5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

5:12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may **know **that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5:14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

If you are God’s Child, then He has promised to tell you that you are saved. “The Spirit itself **BEARETH WITNESS **with our spirit, that we are the children of God” (Romans 8:16). When you became a Believer upon Jesus Christ, the Godhead moved into your heart—God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit came into your soul to live forever. The Godhead lives within our body in the person of God, the Holy Spirit. It is God’s very Spirit that testifies to our own spirit that we are a Child of God.

How does God’s Holy Spirit bear **witness **to our spirit that we are saved? Listen to the precious Words of Jesus, “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you” (John 14:16,17).

 

[Fisher]

Paul’s “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – that does not sound like OSAS to me

Philippians 2:12, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Ephesians 2:8-10, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Psalm 51:12, “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free spirit.”

Perhaps it would be better to say there are two salvations–the salvation of the soul and the salvation of the life, or as the previous chapter emphasized, the salvation from the garbage can and the salvation to the recycling. The first is what David was talking about in Psalm 51:12. Notice the words, “'My salvation.” The second is the one that is mentioned in Philippians 2:12. Notice the words, “work out your own salvation.” Notice, I am not commanded to work out God’s salvation, for I cannot do that. I am, however, commanded to work out my own. I have no part in the salvation of my soul; I do have a part in the salvation of my life.

God reminds me that His salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9). However, immediately He tells me that I was created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2: 10). This coincides with Philippians 2:12 which admonishes me to work out my own salvation. This means His salvaging is not of works and my salvaging largely depends upon my works.

Then I am His work being prepared for my work, which is being prepared for me. Not only is God preparing me for my work, but He is preparing my work for me.

 

[nonsumd]

Fisher,

We are indeed saved by grace and by grace alone. We have nothing to boast of when we unite our will to God’s will because the very desire to do this is a work of grace in us.

The Catholic Church has never taught a works-based salvation, you should know that. It has taught that faith without works is dead and cannot save just as works done in effect out of faith in oneself (one’s own “worthiness”) rather than in God’s promises cannot save either.

Faith in God’s saving power frees our works to become His works, works that in turn make our faith truly alive and thus salvific.

Now, how does all this lead to an idea that salvation cannot be lost?

Perhaps it would be better to say there are two salvations–the salvation of the soul and the salvation of the life, or as the previous chapter emphasized, the salvation from the garbage can and the salvation to the recycling. The first is what David was talking about in Psalm 51:12. Notice the words, “'My salvation.” The second is the one that is mentioned in Philippians 2:12. Notice the words, “work out your own salvation.” Notice, I am not commanded to work out God’s salvation, for I cannot do that. I am, however, commanded to work out my own. I have no part in the salvation of my soul; I do have a part in the salvation of my life.

I think you are saying that you distinguish between what God does to save us and what we do to save ourselves. What are you talking about? Are you positing a salvation that pertains to a person’s earthly life and another salvation that pertains to a person’s afterlife? Are you saying that whenever the NT refers to salvation as belonging to someone it only refers to “salvation from the garbage can” (or “salvation for recycling” – I am not sure which metaphor corresponds to the “salvation of life” rather than “salvation of the soul”)? Where do you get this stuff from?

 

[Pax]

I hope that you will go back and read my posts…you still insist on talking about our works as if we are earning our salvation. Catholics do not believe this and the Church does not teach it.
So please try arguing against what the Church teaches and not a strawman.

You claimed that "You can know 100 precent to day you are going to Heaven."

This is an absurd claim. This claim means that you have divine knowledge that is reserved to God.

Scripture gives numerous examples of people that fell away from the faith, but I am especially fond of the story of the prodigal son. The story of the prodigal son pretty much says it all. The son left the household on his own accord. Upon coming to his senses he returns to his father’s household and confesses that he has sinned. Scripture then gives us the clear message about what has taken place. In Luke 15:22-24 it says:

“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”

Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”

This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way **will save his soul from death **and will cover a multitude of sins.”

These two passages of scripture totally debunk OSAS yet there are many more. I have personally researched in excess of 60 passages that deny the teaching.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Fisher, I’m still waiting for your answer to this:

What would you say if I took that GIFT, played with it for a while, then came up to you later and said, “You know what, I really don’t want this.” Then I dropped that gift on the ground at your feet, stomped on it a few times and walked away?

 

[Fisher]

Fisher, I’m still waiting for your answer to this:/QUOTE

If you had a child and he or she was bad would you stop being their parent would they stop being your child ? would you punish them could they die if they live a reckless life style? and if so would they still be your child ?

I dont know about you but that my child is still my child no matter what they do. I still punish them as long as the are under my roof

I adopted 2 children a girl and a boy my daughter is now in living a great life because she did what she was told my son on the other hand got into world and now has to pay that price, and it so high.

Sin will take you farther then you want to go !

It will keep you longer then you want to stay !

And it will cost you more then you want to pay !

And to answer your question, first are you born again and if the answer is yes, then any sin you do is like throwing your gift at God face. he sees all, he knows all. You can’t get out of bed with out his grace you cant take a breath with out his grace, and no sin goes with out a price and you will not get away with anything.

A born-again believer does NOT convert to the Mormon faith or become an atheist. When a man claims that he “used to be a Christian,” but now has become a Jehovah’s Witness, he’s a liar. He never was a Christian to begin with. You don’t trust Christ one day and not the next, it doesn’t work that way. If you don’t have Jesus Christ today, it is ONLY because you never really trusted Him at all. In contrast to the other Apostles, Judas was a known unrepentant thief (John 12:6). We have no Scriptural reason to believe that Judas was ever a believer. This is why the Bible warns us to make sure we are saved, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith…” (2nd Corinthians 13:5). Are you really a Christian? Churches today are filled with people who are not saved. Most people today have churchianity without Christianity. Please make certain you have been born-again. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions (Proverb 14:12; 2nd Corinthians 11:13,14).

If your are a believer upon Jesus Christ (a Christian), then you can NEVER lose your salvation. Jesus said in John 10:28, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” Did you read that? We shall NEVER perish, and NO MAN can affect our salvation. Someone may pray to God for you to burn in hell (a popular trend in society), but that simply cannot happen. You choose your own destiny based upon you acceptance or denial of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. Did you know that God CANNOT lie? According to Titus 1:2, God cannot lie! Well God promised in Romans 10:13 to save me if I simply called upon Jesus’ name to save me and forgive my sins. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

God cannot lie! (Titus 1:2). As a matter of fact, the Bible is speaking of eternal security when It tells us that God cannot lie. “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” (Titus 1:2). What a loving God! You can speak to people from many different religions and you’ll discover a pervading sense of fear and uncertainty. No wonder Jesus said:

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” -Matthew 11:28

 

[Calvinator]

Who has greater security? One who believes that salvation is a process, and as such a path that can be strayed from? Or one who believes salvation is accomplished in an instant and, spending his life falling back into sin, with every sin doubts whether he has truly been saved?

The security lies with God, not us. So, the justified are justified are justified, whether they have doubts or not is irrelevant to the issue of security.

The issue of doubting ones final state in eternity is not unique to Reformed theology.