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gallardo
Guest
Are you saying that Hitler should be allowed to enter Paradise without any punishment as he believed in Jesus (his “God”)?
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Fisher
Guest
**What is the point of preaching Jesus’ saving power when those who are saved are saved whether they hear God’s word or not? What is the point if not to turn others to the path of God who might otherwise not have turned to it **
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
be·seech
tr.v. be·sought (-sôt’) or be·seeched, be·seech·ing, be·seech·es
To address an earnest or urgent request to; implore: beseech them for help.
To request earnestly; beg for: beseech help. See Synonyms at beg.
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
be·seech
tr.v. be·sought (-sôt’) or be·seeched, be·seech·ing, be·seech·es
To address an earnest or urgent request to; implore: beseech them for help.
To request earnestly; beg for: beseech help. See Synonyms at beg.
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Pax
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Pax
Guest
Fisher,
I can supply you with over 65 passages of scripture that deny OSAS. If you are willing to take a prayerful and serious look at these, simply PM me and give me your email address. I’ll be glad to send the files.
Please be advised that you have yet to present a comprehensive doctrinal statement that encompasses all of the verses you’ve quoted along with all of the counter verses that have been given to you. Until your doctrines comprehensively include all of them, you have a huge problem before you. OSAS does not fit into the entirety of the NT scripture. The teaching is a late comer to Christianity and it relies on a few select verses, some of which are taken out of context, and requires that its adherents ignore even more scripture. This is an obvious and serious flaw.
I can supply you with over 65 passages of scripture that deny OSAS. If you are willing to take a prayerful and serious look at these, simply PM me and give me your email address. I’ll be glad to send the files.
Please be advised that you have yet to present a comprehensive doctrinal statement that encompasses all of the verses you’ve quoted along with all of the counter verses that have been given to you. Until your doctrines comprehensively include all of them, you have a huge problem before you. OSAS does not fit into the entirety of the NT scripture. The teaching is a late comer to Christianity and it relies on a few select verses, some of which are taken out of context, and requires that its adherents ignore even more scripture. This is an obvious and serious flaw.
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Fisher
Guest
Isn’t faith itself the hope of salvation in Jesus Christ which we are to put on as part of the spiritual armor (1 Thes. 5:8)? Are we not to hope in the return of Christ bodily to earth to rule and judge (Titus 2:13)? Should we not hope for eternal life (Titus 3:7)? Why is hope being painted as a bad thing? We should pray without doubting (James 1:6), **but hope is the opposite of doubt. **Fisher -
We appreciate your zeal for your love of Christ and your knowledge. But I note this verse and other things you’ve said on this thread.
Yes, faith in Christ will allow us rest. It is a comfort. No, God does not lie. Eternal life is truly a free gift from God. But note in Matthew that he said we have “hope” in the promise of eternal life. Not to try and simplify this too much, how come we have “hope” and not “assurance?” Wouldn’t that be that all-elusive “guarantee” that eternal assurance promises?
Pax, Pixie Dust and others have given you verses that seem to contradict your own verses to support ES. Why haven’t you addressed those? Your focus is very narrowly limited, and it hasn’t seem to do you any good here to support the ES notion. As you know, the Bible cannot contradict itself.
I was just hoping to see a little more with your argument.
1 John 3:3 ** Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.**
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Fisher
Guest
**While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal **
tr.v. sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing, sanc·ti·fies
To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.
To make holy; purify.
To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow: sanctify a marriage.
To give social or moral sanction to.
To make productive of holiness or spiritual blessing
John6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
- While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
- And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
- I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
- They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
- As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
- And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
tr.v. sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing, sanc·ti·fies
To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.
To make holy; purify.
To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow: sanctify a marriage.
To give social or moral sanction to.
To make productive of holiness or spiritual blessing
John6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
- Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
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Fisher
Guest
John6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
- Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
- He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
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Pax
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You have not analyzed or refuted my posts on the passage in John. You need to think about the contents of the posts and arguments presented. That is how we gain insight.
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Pax
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This is an important passage of scripture, but you have misused it. Jesus is speaking of those that did not believe him when he said that he would give us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink. Those that turned away from Jesus did not believe this. Likewise, Jesus indicates that Judas did not believe this particular teaching either.
This creates huge problems for non-Catholic Christians when they try to use John 6 as you have in your post. Non-Catholic Christian do not believe that Jesus is giving us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink either. Does this mean that non-Catholic Christians do not believe that Jesus is the Savior? Think about this.
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Pax
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This is all well and good, but hope is not absolute assurance or OSAS.
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Fisher
Guest
God does all the work He did the work on the cross John 19:30. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
God does the work in me. Only God knows your heart. Only He can save me. You will say that you can do something to get your self saved and stay saved. I cant only God can; Like I said before with out His Grace I can not take my next breath of air. ALL His Glory All His Power All His Love All His Mercy He is Holy Holy Holy He know no Sin. So One Little Sin on YOU AND YOU WILL NOT BE SAVED. SO HOW CAN I GET SAVED AND STAY SAVED. Through JESUS ONLY NOT WORKS take God on His word He does not lie.
John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that** believeth in me**, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." **
John 6:40, "And this is the will **of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 1st Corinthians 3:11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Galatians 3:26, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
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Pax
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You are not getting the message. Catholics do not believe that we somehow save ourselves. I’ll give this one more shot.
Now let’s look at Eph 2:8-10 which says:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
- We are saved by God’s grace alone.
- This is a gift of God and nothing we have done brings about this gift.
- We are God’s workmanship. We are **not **our own workmanship.
- We are at the moment of our justification created in Christ Jesus for good works.
- God prepared these works in advance of our justification.
Now please take note. All of this is one way. It all comes to us from God.
Now let’s look at Romans 6:23 which says,
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Please note that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is what God does for us.
“The wages of sin is death.” That’s what we do and that comes from the flesh, the world and the devil.
The promises of Christ include and do not eliminate God’s gift of free will. We can choose whatever we want including ourselves over God. This and its ramifications are stated explicitly in Hebrews 10:29-30 which says:
“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man** who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? **For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people”. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
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nonsumd
Guest
Fisher,
these verses do not refute my point, if that was your intention.
Again, if it is predetermined that a person is saved or damned, then what is the point of preaching to people that they should convert?
If God has already decided our fate and we can do nothing to change that decision, why did He give us revelation at all? Why does He tell us to repent and convert? Why does He tell us to do certain things or even believe certain things at all?
Why do His messengers beseech us to do anything? if we are already saved before we hear them, our doing what they beseech us to do won’t make difference. If we already are damned before we hear them, our doing what the messengers urgently request us to do won’t make a difference either.
As I read it, the Bible does not mean to give us an absolute assurance of the salvation of the soul in the afterlife, rather it urges us to repentance and conversion – to stand up every time we fall, or better, to let God pick us up every time we fall. It does not teach that there is an intermediate state between falling and standing, which is how OSAS seems to view “post-salvation” sinning.
At some point, you denounced Calvin a heretic for teaching predestination – OSAS, as I understand it, is inseparable from predestination. How do you separate the two (if you actually do)?
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Fisher
Guest
Is it really possible for a truly saved person to literally and actually give up his faith entirely? If Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 are describing born-again people, then the answer is yes. Such individuals have put themselves beyond all human help. They have “crossed the line” and cannot be renewed to repentance. Thus, they face judgment as they fall into the hands of a living God for severe judgment and the possibility of imminent physical death. It is also possible that these verses describe individuals who were never truly born again in the first place. Such people have truly hardened their hearts against the God they claimed to know intimately. Because God will not be mocked, there is nothing left for them but judgment. Perhaps we are left with the practical reality that “only God knows for sure” in such cases. In any case, I do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 describe losing your salvation.)
Here are three concluding truths to ponder:
- Since salvation begins and ends with God, we are as secure as he is.
- Since God cannot lie, we can trust him to save us eternally.
- Since heaven will be so wonderful, we’ll never regret serving the Lord in this life.
It is precisely at this point that we must think very clearly. Many Christians believe that, although salvation is of the Lord, they have a part to play as well. They seem to think that salvation is 99% of God and maybe 1% dependent on what they do. It is not so. Even the faith to believe comes as a gift from God. Even the power to choose the Lord must come from the Holy Spirit. Let us unite in saying that our salvation is God’s gracious gift which we receive through faith. It’s not that God has done the hard part and we must do the easy part, it’s that God has done every part and enabled us to receive what he has graciously given.
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Fisher
Guest
Romans8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
if it were not possible for a believer to take himself out of God’s grace. Upon first blush the answer would seem to be yes. You believed, so certainly you could “unbelieve” if you wanted to. And some people have apparently done that. They have recanted their Christianity and returned to their former beliefs or gone back into the world and followed the path of sinful excess.
Surely God would not continue to save such a person, would he? Let us answer in two ways: First, in the great majority of such cases we may say with assurance that such persons were never true believers in the first place. Their faith was the profession of a religious person, not the saving faith the Bible talks about. They professed what they did not possess. Since they were never saved in the first place, they couldn’t lose what they never had. Second, in the remaining minority of cases we may simply reply that God saves whom he desires to save. There may well be some people in heaven who truly believed but later recanted but were saved as a demonstration of the depth of God’s amazing grace. How can I say that? Because Romans 8:39 says that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. We can’t even separate ourselves from that saving love! Are you part of God’s creation? If the answer is yes, then even you can’t “unsave” yourself. This is surely the most stupendous truth relating to eternal security.
Remember, we are all saved in the end in spite of ourselves and not because of anything we do. That’s why your salvation doesn’t rest on you, if it did you would never go to heaven. And neither would I.
When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, the Lord told him, “You must be born again.” The thought baffled Nicodemus who said, “A man can’t enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” No, he can’t. Once born physically, you canít be “unborn” physically. The same is true in the spiritual realm. Once born spiritually, you can never be “unborn” spiritually. The new birth can no more be reversed than a newborn baby can somehow crawl back into the womb. It can’t be done.
Are you born again? Rejoice in this truth. By God’s grace you are born again forever and can never be “unborn.”
I can summarize everything I have said so far in three simple statements:
God has done everything necessary to make you eternally secure.
Eternal security is the reason you can know you are going to heaven when you die.
That is why Romans 8:1 says there is “no condemnation” to those who are in Christ Jesus.
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
if it were not possible for a believer to take himself out of God’s grace. Upon first blush the answer would seem to be yes. You believed, so certainly you could “unbelieve” if you wanted to. And some people have apparently done that. They have recanted their Christianity and returned to their former beliefs or gone back into the world and followed the path of sinful excess.
Surely God would not continue to save such a person, would he? Let us answer in two ways: First, in the great majority of such cases we may say with assurance that such persons were never true believers in the first place. Their faith was the profession of a religious person, not the saving faith the Bible talks about. They professed what they did not possess. Since they were never saved in the first place, they couldn’t lose what they never had. Second, in the remaining minority of cases we may simply reply that God saves whom he desires to save. There may well be some people in heaven who truly believed but later recanted but were saved as a demonstration of the depth of God’s amazing grace. How can I say that? Because Romans 8:39 says that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. We can’t even separate ourselves from that saving love! Are you part of God’s creation? If the answer is yes, then even you can’t “unsave” yourself. This is surely the most stupendous truth relating to eternal security.
Remember, we are all saved in the end in spite of ourselves and not because of anything we do. That’s why your salvation doesn’t rest on you, if it did you would never go to heaven. And neither would I.
When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, the Lord told him, “You must be born again.” The thought baffled Nicodemus who said, “A man can’t enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” No, he can’t. Once born physically, you canít be “unborn” physically. The same is true in the spiritual realm. Once born spiritually, you can never be “unborn” spiritually. The new birth can no more be reversed than a newborn baby can somehow crawl back into the womb. It can’t be done.
Are you born again? Rejoice in this truth. By God’s grace you are born again forever and can never be “unborn.”
I can summarize everything I have said so far in three simple statements:
God has done everything necessary to make you eternally secure.
Eternal security is the reason you can know you are going to heaven when you die.
That is why Romans 8:1 says there is “no condemnation” to those who are in Christ Jesus.
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geauxtigers
Guest
What you describe here is not “losing” one’s salvation, it is “rejecting” one’s salvation. I do believe in eternal security, because God gave me the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ His son, and I accepted His gift, and I know for sure that if I died today, I would be in heaven with my Lord. If a person rejects God and rejects Jesus’ sacrifice, was he ever truly saved? If his sins are washed away and he is a new person in Christ, can he really reject that and basically change himself back into that old person again? Does a mere man have that power? I don’t think so. A person can go through the motions of religion without ever making that heart-change. I know I’m probably not saying this very well, but this is what I believe.
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Pax
Guest
Were the people addressed in Hebrews saved? Were they born again? Let’s settle this issue by way of scripture.
We know the author of the Book of Hebrews is talking to and teaching Christian believers because of the verses that precede the subject verses. For example:
Heb 2: 1. “ THEREFORE **WE **must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall **we **escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and “
The author over and over uses the word “we” and continues to do so in the letter. While there are many things to quote in Hebrews, we can get to the heart of the matter by focusing on some things in Chapter five that clearly establish that the author is addressing believing Christians. Hebrews 5:12-14 says,
“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.”
Now please notice that the author tells those receiving his letter that by now they ought to be teachers, but that they are immature. He does not say that they are non-believers or that they are not born again. Instead, the criticism of immaturity is explained by the fact that they are “unskilled in the word of righteousness.” They still need practice to distinguish good from evil, even though they should already be passed that. It is then that chapter six begins and the author warns these same people of apostasy. Right after the warning the author returns to exhorting them saying, “And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”[Hebrews 6:11-12]
These people are believers. Moreover, it is important to note the reference to apostasy. Please be advised that someone cannot commit apostasy unless they are a believer. Apostasy is the public abandoning of your faith for another. Both the Jewish authorities and the Romans persecuted Christians with torture and death. If you committed apostasy and swore the appropriate oaths against Jesus in favor of the Emperor, the Romans would spare your life. Some chose martyrdom and some chose apostasy.
You cannot fall away from something that you did not already believe. Logic, linguistics, hermeneutics, and history make this clear.
I hope this helps.
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Pax
Guest
Let’s test all this by scripture. Go back once again to the story of the prodigal son. The story of the prodigal son pretty much says it all. The son left the household on his own accord. Upon coming to his senses he returns to his father’s household and confesses that he has sinned. Scripture then gives us the clear message about what has taken place. In Luke 15:22-24 it says:
“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”
Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”
This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,
“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
Yes, a person can lose their salvation and can be restored through repentance by way of God’s grace and mercy.
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Pax
Guest
What exactly does this verse really mean? Well, it simply means that anyone that “abides” in Christ will be saved. Let’s take a look at what this means by way of similar verses in scripture. To do this you need to understand something very important. The word “abide” means to remain. In the following quotes I will insert in brackets the word “remain” along side the word abide so that you will see the meaning.
1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you,** then** you will abide[remain] in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
2 John 9-11
Any one who goes ahead and does not abide [remain] in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides[remains] in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.
The use of the term to abide/remain in Christ occurs many more times in scripture as do provisional terms like “If.” You can indeed lose your salvation.
Now answer a simple question. Will any Christian that commits murder or is caught up in fornication without repenting be allowed in heaven?
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