Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father

[Anna_Scott]

Some Protestants claim that Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father is the historic doctrine of the Church.

The Eternal Subordination of the Son Is the Historic Doctrine of the Church
ESS affirms the full divinity and supremacy of the person of the Eternal Son – Jesus Christ our Lord. We also affirm the biblical and historical truth that the Son and the Spirit, while equal in essence, had subordinate roles to the Father (and to the Son in the Spirit’s case).

The implications of this claim are far reaching, with both religious and social implications.

What is your position?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Anna Scott;14487925]Some Protestants claim that Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father is the historic doctrine of the Church.

FALSE. There is no historical Church evidence relating to Church doctrine that has the **Son ETERNALLY subordinate **to the Father.

Although your article articulates and finds common ground, from some Early Church Father’s writings (not doctrine) in relation to the divine economic procession. Your ESS article lacks the full apostolic deposit of faith from the Early Church Fathers’ when they teach on the Trinity of persons.

To sum up Hilary of Poitiers apostolic faith, who was referenced in the ESS article, when Hillary defeated his Arian contemporaries with; That which proceeds from God is God. Here Hilary’s apostolic faith does not reveal an eternal subordination.

I find the ESS places a contradiction of the divine will, with that which proceeds divine revelation in the Trinity of persons, or the ESS confuses that which is eternal, which is not subject to subordination, to that divine revelation proceeding God from God, light from light.

God does not reveal the Father is greater than the Son, until the Word became flesh. It was God incarnate who reveals from His Incarnate state, while in space and time, that the Father is greater than the Son.

Prior to the Incarnation, God the Holy Spirit inspired holy writ that records, God speaking from eternity; “Let us make man in our Image”. There is no eternal subordination of the Son to the Father. If? the Son has Eternal Subordination to the Father according to the ESS, then, the Son would be eternally creating man in God’s image, without any procession. God would have eternally continued creating. Which would be a direct contradiction to God’s Word, who say’s; “Let every seed bare offspring after it’s own seed”,

For example; Jesus reveals that; What ever the Father is doing, the Son does (John 5:17-19) Here the work of God deals with the will of the Father who does not proceed and the Son who proceeds from the Father in space and time. We have not discussed that which is eternally begotten, which is not the same as Eternally Subordination of the Son to the Father.

URL=“The Eternal Subordination of the Son Is the Historic Doctrine of the Church — SBC Voices”]The Eternal Subordination of the Son Is the Historic Doctrine of the Church

ESS supporters make this false historical claim, taking historical writings of the Church Fathers and articulating their writings to ESS understanding, but ESS does not equate with the divine revelation from both scripture and apostolic Sacred Tradition which possesses the full deposit of the Catholic Faith, to which these Early Church Father’s faith held.

ESS affirms the full divinity and supremacy of the person of the Eternal Son – Jesus Christ our Lord. We also affirm the biblical and historical truth that **the Son **and the Spirit, while equal in essence, **had subordinate **roles to the Father (and to the Son in the Spirit’s case).

This is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. ESS can make dress itself up as the Orthodox Catholic faith. But when ESS places the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father, ESS leaves sound Church doctrine and the faith expressed from the Nicene Creed.

The Son cannot have a pass tense (had) subordination role to the Father, as I underlined in above post, if the Son has an eternal subordination role to the Father? This eternal subordination is a contradiction to the Procession in Presence of the Word incarnate.

The only thing ESS confirms for me is revealed here;

Luke 2:34
and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, **this child is destined **for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradictedl

That is my present position; ESS is grounded on ancient heretical border lines and has renewed itself in recent times as a new development into a non-divine (NON-CHURCH DOCTRINE) revelation that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father.

Peace with you

 

[Anna_Scott]

FALSE. There is no historical Church evidence relating to Church doctrine that has the **Son ETERNALLY subordinate **to the Father.

Although your article articulates and finds common ground, from some Early Church Father’s writings (not doctrine) in relation to the divine economic procession. Your ESS article lacks the full apostolic deposit of faith from the Early Church Fathers’ when they teach on the Trinity of persons.

To sum up Hilary of Poitiers apostolic faith, who was referenced in the ESS article, when Hillary defeated his Arian contemporaries with; That which proceeds from God is God. Here Hilary’s apostolic faith does not reveal an eternal subordination.

I find the ESS places a contradiction of the divine will, with that which proceeds divine revelation in the Trinity of persons, or the ESS confuses that which is eternal, which is not subject to subordination, to that divine revelation proceeding God from God, light from light.

God does not reveal the Father is greater than the Son, until the Word became flesh. It was God incarnate who reveals from His Incarnate state, while in space and time, that the Father is greater than the Son.

Prior to the Incarnation, God the Holy Spirit inspired holy writ that records, God speaking from eternity; “Let us make man in our Image”. There is no eternal subordination of the Son to the Father. If? the Son has Eternal Subordination to the Father according to the ESS, then, the Son would be eternally creating man in God’s image, without any procession. God would have eternally continued creating. Which would be a direct contradiction to God’s Word, who say’s; “Let every seed bare offspring after it’s own seed”,

For example; Jesus reveals that; What ever the Father is doing, the Son does (John 5:17-19) Here the work of God deals with the will of the Father who does not proceed and the Son who proceeds from the Father in space and time. We have not discussed that which is eternally begotten, which is not the same as Eternally Subordination of the Son to the Father.

ESS supporters make this false historical claim, taking historical writings of the Church Fathers and articulating their writings to ESS understanding, but ESS does not equate with the divine revelation from both scripture and apostolic Sacred Tradition which possesses the full deposit of the Catholic Faith, to which these Early Church Father’s faith held.

This is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. ESS can make dress itself up as the Orthodox Catholic faith. But when ESS places the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father, ESS leaves sound Church doctrine and the faith expressed from the Nicene Creed.

The Son cannot have a pass tense (had) subordination role to the Father, as I underlined in above post, if the Son has an eternal subordination role to the Father? This eternal subordination is a contradiction to the Procession in Presence of the Word incarnate.

The only thing ESS confirms for me is revealed here;

Luke 2:34
and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, **this child is destined **for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradictedl

That is my present position;

Peace with you

Gabriel of 12,

I really appreciate your post. The link I posted was simply to give an example of the claims being made by Christians espousing ESS.

The ESS claim seems to undermine the Holy Trinity. That’s dangerous territory, in my opinion, as a Christian.

Thanks!

Anna

 

[PluniaZ]

ESS is one of the main reasons I left evangelical Calvinism. When I was in the PCA, I read a friend’s copy of Wayne Grudem’s, “Systematic Theology”, where he writes to the effect that Father has authority over the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I had another friend who was openly Arian, and the PCA elders in my congregation refused to excommunicate him. I remember thinking, “What’s the point of harping on about justification by faith alone, if you can’t even get the doctrine of the Trinity right?”

Today I see subordinationism and semi-Arianism cropping up in various forms all over the internet, so we need to be hyper-vigilant to prevent this old heresy from leading anyone astray.

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in every respect.

Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

“In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.”

The Athanasian Creed - preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Quicumque.html

 

[Anna_Scott]

ESS is one of the main reasons I left evangelical Calvinism. When I was in the PCA, I read a friend’s copy of Wayne Grudem’s, “Systematic Theology”, where he writes to the effect that Father has authority over the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I had another friend who was openly Arian, and the PCA elders in my congregation refused to excommunicate him. I remember thinking, “What’s the point of harping on about justification by faith alone, if you can’t even get the doctrine of the Trinity right?”

Today I see subordinationism and semi-Arianism cropping up in various forms all over the internet, so we need to be hyper-vigilant to prevent this old heresy from leading anyone astray.

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in every respect.

Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

PluniaZ,

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. This is a serious issue. I’m not sure people in the pews, hearing the teaching of ESS, realize how dangerous it is and the fact that it degrades the Holy Trinity.

I think you are absolutely right about the need to be “hyper-vigilant” regarding this “old heresy.”

Frankly, I’m surprised I’ve had so few responses to this thread.

Thanks so much!
Anna