Eternity and Perception of Time

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Hmmm…Tonyrey, you seem smarter than the average bear, judging from that last post of yours. (#20) I would be really curious how you would make that same statement if either you had Sanskrit under your belt, or had a bit of training in esoteric Christianity, as if anyone knew that existed any more. So close…
 
How cool is that, to have received such a rare copy that way! I enjoyed Vonnegut, but my most fascinating encounters were with the social and cultural ideas of Heinlein and Asimov, as well as the astonishingly delightful imagination fo Ray Bradbury.
I like Heinlein and Bradbury, Verne is still my favorite though – after all he did invent the genre. H.P. Lovecraft’s sci-fi bend is also vastly under-rated.
I will give you my personal synopsis of BSK, if you wish, by PM, but with the caveat that you may not like it, despite its ultimate utility in the question of the thread. That is not even to bring in its practical applicaitons in understanding spirituality, a word I don’t care for, really, but which serves.
I’d like to read it, but I think I have PMing turned off, however my AIM is set and the icon shows up.
In the mean time, so as not to cause uneccesary turbulence, I will refer you to amazon.com/Basic-Self-Knowledge-Harry-Benjamin/dp/0877281629# where you may read the prefatory material by clicking on the picture of the cover. If you are not simply a habitually pious Catholic, you may find it completly intruiging. Or not. Just remember as you are reading there, Mark 4:33,34.
I’ll look into that. As for the part about being habitually pious, you’re talking to the man who spends a great deal of his time pointing out the bigotry in Catholic literature and challenging the author to explain it. I have found this bigotry so deeply ingrained in the Church that I was forced to action.
 
Compliments on your fine taste in SF. If you are as self-described regarding our faith, I think you may have a very pleasant surprise in store. Keep in touch.

Blessings and Best,

Bindar
 
How cool is that, to have received such a rare copy that way! I enjoyed Vonnegut, but my most fascinating encounters were with the social and cultural ideas of Heinlein and Asimov, as well as the astonishingly delightful imagination fo Ray Bradbury.

I will give you my personal synopsis of BSK, if you wish, by PM, but with the caveat that you may not like it, despite its ultimate utility in the question of the thread. That is not even to bring in its practical applicaitons in understanding spirituality, a word I don’t care for, really, but which serves.

In the mean time, so as not to cause uneccesary turbulence, I will refer you to amazon.com/Basic-Self-Knowledge-Harry-Benjamin/dp/0877281629# where you may read the prefatory material by clicking on the picture of the cover. If you are not simply a habitually pious Catholic, you may find it completly intruiging. Or not. Just remember as you are reading there, Mark 4:33,34.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC
I read through the first chapter, pretty interesting read. I think I’ll pick that one up, it might be worth adding to the permanent collection.
 
True story about BSK:

An aquaintance of mine, an electro-mechanical genius, wanted enter a dialog group based on that work. He was told, “OK, read the book and come back.” He did, and was quized on the meaning of its contents. He was told “Read the book, and come back.” To this day, I don’t know why he persisted, but he read the book 26 times before he appeared in front of the dialog group confessing that he had finally realized that he was reading the book through his prejudices and had only now discovered that it was about something he hadn’t thought of. Of course we aren’t creatures of habit! 😃

Am I to understand then, that you have read John Dunne’s An Experiement with Time? That was a fascinating one for me, as I have had many deja vu, and he relates that to our time awareness capabilities. I don’t recall off hand if he treated it relative to eternality, as does Benjamin’s work. I will scan it again and let you know if it too is applicable to this thread.

BD
 
Eternity is beyond human comprehension.

The only choice you need to make when it comes to the infinite, is what you believe it entails…IF is a state of your mind finite, infite, or is there a form of time and flow that could exist outside your world frame?

We, finite humans…were never meant to understand infiity. If we were meant to understand it…, we already would.
I concur. Eternity is a state of existence or a quality associated with God. One can speculate, and speculation can be fun, but that is all we can do. We simply cannot comprehend it.

However, I ask, why bother to wonder? Once you are enveloped by eternity, you will have all the time in the world to think about it. [This is supposed to be a pun. Ha ha]

In Christ
 
As much as I have often agreed with Dameedna in the past, in this case I feel a need to comment.

I know that it is a popular position to hold that "If we were supposed to , we would already_ . Were we supposed to, then, not figure out how to get or grow food? Or use math? Or learn about biology/medicine? How to relate to people? I mean even in that sense, we were “given” commandments, so clealy we didn’t “know.” So what doe either of you mean by “If we were meant to understand it…, we already would.” Are not the things we have learned a part of infinity, or maybyu you were meanting the entire compass and center of infinity? But even then if we weren’t, why have religion or worship God? Where is the place of creativity, then, which peers into infiity with a question in order to bring something new to our experience?
 
True story about BSK:

An aquaintance of mine, an electro-mechanical genius, wanted enter a dialog group based on that work. He was told, “OK, read the book and come back.” He did, and was quized on the meaning of its contents. He was told “Read the book, and come back.” To this day, I don’t know why he persisted, but he read the book 26 times before he appeared in front of the dialog group confessing that he had finally realized that he was reading the book through his prejudices and had only now discovered that it was about something he hadn’t thought of. Of course we aren’t creatures of habit! 😃

Am I to understand then, that you have read John Dunne’s An Experiement with Time? That was a fascinating one for me, as I have had many deja vu, and he relates that to our time awareness capabilities. I don’t recall off hand if he treated it relative to eternality, as does Benjamin’s work. I will scan it again and let you know if it too is applicable to this thread.

BD
I have not read An Experiment with Time.
 
Once we are in “being”, WE do not undergo substantial change until our deaths. Upon the formation of us, our souls became “eternal”, but, not eternal in the same sense that God is Eternal. Our souls cannot pass out of being, out of existence, in other words. No other substantial change takes place to us except that our spirits will become separated from our bodies.

Upon death, our spirits are separated from our bodies. At a later time, the Second Coming, our spirits will be re-united with our bodies. We will become souls once again. From this point on, we are eternal, but in terms of accidental succession and being. We will experience moment by moment our happiness, as the writer says, of the continuous presence of God before us.

jd
If the word “eternal” means without beginning or end, then upon formation our souls may only be classified as immortal. At the moment (a “moment” being the only shared being of time and eternity) of the Second Coming, those “sheep” whose immortal souls are re-united to their bodies and those who have never been separated will be elevated to share in the eternal life of the Trinity.

It is difficult to express events in eternity while locked in the succession of time. For instance, God created the angels as immortal beings, outside of time. All things created by God are good. Yet Lucifer and his dominions as immortal beings knowing the eternal effects of their decision to reject God’s grace, substantially changed in being, from good to evil. Since their knowledge of the effects of their decision was complete, they may not be saved just as we, at the time of our death enter immortality and, after death, may not change our disposition toward God. Before death, our ignorance of the full effects of the evil we do leaves open the possibility of our redemption. Personal ignorance is man’s blessing; personal omniscience the demons’ curse.

Peace,
O’Malley
 
good point with the coming in/out of life. The absence of death would be a nice substantial change to not witness, but birth? I always thought that was really joyous, but at the same time I wouldn’t have a reason to mourn the absence of birth. The other substantial changes seem trivial. I wouldn’t much be impressed with eternity if that was a big “selling point” (to be clear, no death is more than enough to sell me)
I guess that’s something we have to live with. We are, after all, mortal, corporeal beings. As mortal, corporeal beings, our bodies corrupt. When our bodies have corrupted sufficiently, our souls leave them. While we are alive, our poor bodies are being constantly worked on by preparatory efficient causes. The purpose of such causes is to “arrange” the matter that our bodies consist of for the proper reception of the form we receive upon passing away.

Other substantial changes are simply part of life as well. In a sense, they train us. They prepare our minds to understand the inevitability of the inevitable. I’m sure the purpose of the substantial change of passing away is not a “selling point” for anything - it just is what it is. It’s the physics and metaphysics of life and death.

My hope for you and me is that eternity for us is a continuous experience with the Beatific Vision, to be in the Presence of God.

jd
 
As to Eternity or Eternality, it has no dimension of duration. It is one of the Big Three fundamentaly erroneous interpretations attached partiuclarly to christianist religons. Mixing the Timeless Nature of God with something completely in another dimension is at the root of the highly developed misinterpretation of God having certain kinds of agency. To say that God does or does not do X is equally worng from the standpoint of eternality.
Detales:

Isn’t all of this nothing more than just your opinion? How can you be so sure the Christians, with our God, have it so wrong? Do you have any proof? That is what I dislike about “assertions”.🙂

jd
 
No, JD, it sounds far-fetched, but I assure you it is closer to you than your nose. I can be and am absolutely sure that the christianist versions of a god are veils before the actuality of insight. Please remember, again, I have been exactly where you are; I know exactly what you think, feel and belive as a devout, sincere Catholic. I am only saying, JD, that there is vastly more than you have seen.

This is in no way to dimininsh anything Catholic. It is to elevate it into a new understanding which is, well, beyond words or price. The good news is, you can only prove it for yourself, and you will, eventually, one way or another. It is inevitable, only “when” is questionable. That is not my assertion, nor my opinion, it is known. You can think you think, but once you know you know, you know you know.
 
To believe change no longer occurs is to believe eternal existence is static but surely the Creator is dynamic. His **nature **does not change because He is the Source of existence. It is misleading to think that He “exists” because He does not “exist” in the same way as everything else. It is tempting to state that God **is **existence but human terms and categories are inadequate to describe God.
Although God’s nature does not change He causes change. Again it is a mistake to regard God’s causality as similar to any other form of causality. To create ex nihilo is the unique power of the Creator.
Even when we are in heaven we shall not exist in the same way that God exists. We continue being created whereas He continues to create. To dissociate change from God is to deny His creativity!
To put it in a nutshell, we cannot understand eternal existence because it is beyond our experience. All we know and need to know is that the infinite value of our existence is explained only by infinite Love…which is beyond time and space…
Tony:

Below are a few paragraphs from The Teaching of the Catholic Church, the MacMillan Company, 1962, Chap III, p 96 - 97. -

" Nothing can of itself change or move in any respect. Whatever is in motion is moved thereto by something other than itself. And inasmuch as each element in the universe needs itself to be influenced in order that it may in turn exert influence, the beginning of motion cannot be traced to any element within the universe. The whole system, as a system, must therefore have been originally endowed with motion, otherwise those relative movements within it with which we are familiar could never have originated. There must have been a first arrangement or ordering of the system as a system which was neither the effect of material energy nor essential to matter as such. That is to say, the motion of the whole finite series or group of elements which constitute the universe must have been produced simultaneously with their fabric, otherwise the system could not have existed at all. As a system they depend upon motion. But the motion itself requires the actual presence of the system. The system cannot be antecedent to the motion on which it depends, and so cannot be the cause of the motion. System and motion must exist simultaneously or not at all. The universe, therefore, was produced in a state of movement by a cause superior both to matter and to motion.

"To summarize the foregoing considerations, the conclusion is clear that the universe is the product of a cause capable of producing instantaneously: (a) the group of heterogeneous elements having each its own potentialities; (b) their mutual complementariness, and (c) their actual motion throughout the system. Only thus actually in motion can the universe have originated.

"It follows, therefore, that the activity whereby the system of nature is produced is of a higher order than the activity of movement or change. The originating Cause of being cannot have the same limited type of activity as it gives to its products. Their changeful mode of activity depends upon influence from without, but there is nothing which can change or move the First Cause, for no being other than that Cause exists on the plane of subsistent being. Nor could that cause move or change itself, for no being, finite or infinite, alone can cause limitation, change, or movement in itself. It follows that the activity of this Cause is not any form of change or movement. The causal activity superior to all change must therefore be ever present in, and identical with, the very Nature of the First Cause. The causation of the universe must thus represent a permanent and changeless natural activity of God as distinct from a transient or departmental change of state. The first change in matter, as well as all subsequent changes, is therefore caused by a being which itself is changeless. Movement ultimately owes its origin to a Prime Mover, himself unmoved, whom we call God.

"Mutability is not an absolute perfection. On the contrary, the possibility of loss or gain denotes the absence of perfection. Change is the transitory stage of being while they are actualising or ceasing to actualise their capacities in conjunction with influences from their environment. Changeability spells incompleteness and dependence. Being as such does not necessarily involve change; indeed, change can only occur in composite being, which is limited and dependent.[SUP]1[/SUP]

Continued . . .
 
Part II . . .

"By definition, therefore, change cannot be absolute and can have no place in ultimate being. Infinity admits no variation. God the Primary Being is thus unique in His superiority to change. He has the perfection of which change implies the lack. In the activity of Deity “there is no change, nor shadow of vicissitude.” [SUP]2[/SUP] The triune life involves no subsequent realisation of capacities previously undeveloped or passive. It has always been fully actualised. Its internal manifestations share the changelessness of the essence in which they eternally originate. Subsistent goodness is necessarily constant and independent, for it is the fullness of being.

"The activity whereby God creates the worlds involves no alteration in God’s life, which has always included it. Creative and miraculous power involves no new state or procedure within his timeless fullness. Whatever God is in any respect, he is changelessly. [SUP]3[/SUP] The meaning of eternity, [SIC], shows that God as Subsistent Creator has never been other than he is. His free creative act is itself necessarily eternal, though its finite product is naturally subject to time and change.[SUP]1[/SUP]

"Immutability in the life of God is thus the antithesis of inertness, and is in contrast to the relative incompetence of beings that are subject to successive variation. Changelessness implies intensity of value in the Infinite as, on the highest plane, unifying the qualities of the static and the dynamic. . . .
[SUP]1[/SUP] Modern scientific philosophy has discarded Darwinism in favour of a theory of a God evolving with the universe in which he works creatively. But to require development in God is sheer anthropomorphism.
[SUP]2[/SUP] James i 17.
[SUP]3[/SUP] In our own finite experience freedom is normally associated with a change of state, but change is not of the essence even of our freedom. It is not the fact of change which renders an act free. The freedom of an act is due solely to the spiritual nature which posits the act. Thus God’s freedom in creating represents the eternally changeless state of his will.
[SUP]1[/SUP] God’s constant providence in our world and in the unseen is included in one creative activity. To will a series of changes is not to change the will. Thus answers to prayer, miracles, the intermediate state of disembodied souls, the Limbo (or Borderland) of those who die innocent of actual sin but unbaptised, equally with the preparation of heaven itself, are not revisions or afterthoughts in the Divine plan of the ages, but form an integral part of one supreme interrelated purpose, the inner significance of which can never be adequately realised in our present state of probation.

jd
 
If the word “eternal” means without beginning or end, then upon formation our souls may only be classified as immortal. At the moment (a “moment” being the only shared being of time and eternity) of the Second Coming, those “sheep” whose immortal souls are re-united to their bodies and those who have never been separated will be elevated to share in the eternal life of the Trinity.

It is difficult to express events in eternity while locked in the succession of time. For instance, God created the angels as immortal beings, outside of time. All things created by God are good. Yet Lucifer and his dominions as immortal beings knowing the eternal effects of their decision to reject God’s grace, substantially changed in being, from good to evil. Since their knowledge of the effects of their decision was complete, they may not be saved just as we, at the time of our death enter immortality and, after death, may not change our disposition toward God. Before death, our ignorance of the full effects of the evil we do leaves open the possibility of our redemption. Personal ignorance is man’s blessing; personal omniscience the demons’ curse.

Peace,
O’Malley
O’Malley:

Well said. I agree.

jd
 
No, JD, it sounds far-fetched, but I assure you it is closer to you than your nose. I can be and am absolutely sure that the christianist versions of a god are veils before the actuality of insight. Please remember, again, I have been exactly where you are; I know exactly what you think, feel and belive as a devout, sincere Catholic. I am only saying, JD, that there is vastly more than you have seen.

This is in no way to dimininsh anything Catholic. It is to elevate it into a new understanding which is, well, beyond words or price. The good news is, you can only prove it for yourself, and you will, eventually, one way or another. It is inevitable, only “when” is questionable. That is not my assertion, nor my opinion, it is known. You can think you think, but once you know you know, you know you know.
I have always found your posts very interesting, sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a negative way. Can you deliver, in the imperfect words of our language, some idea of what you mean? Realize that the Church has been here for close to 2,000 years and has been the home of many, if not most, of the most intelligent people that have ever lived. I have heard you say that you belive that Aquinas had a personal revelation of some sort not long before he died. What do you think it was?

jd
 
JD, I feel similarly about your posts. You display an even handedness that seems to be lacking a great deal in many. Even if we might disagree in some areas, I have a great respect for you and wish to keep that honor from you as well.

I find the question of Aquinas extremely fascinating. I am convinced in my heart and mind that it is true that all men and women, Man as a race, is made in the image and likeness of God; the actual living God, not the one we almost invaraibly, in my opinion, necessarily make up due to our limited perceptions and understanding. In that regard, I feel that similarly to a classroom, there are degrees, and even kinds of qualitatively different understandings we have of God’s Nature, and of our special and racial possibilites of relationship with Divinity.

Also because of my belief that all are created in this image and likeness, that events that occur in the human psyche are necessarily within a set of paramaters defined by the nature of our own Being. I belive that this is true of Mankind since he was that. That means to me, that since God is the substrate of Creation and is Eternal, there has not been a time in human history when God wasn’t. That means that all those folks before Jesus, after Him, and into the future on and off this planet, have had, do, and will have various kinds and degrees of encounters with the Divine. Those encounters are necessarily filtered through the means at hand, those being in part such things as language, belief system, education, intellect, etc, etc.

My personal sense is that the nature of encounters withthe Divine are not restricted ot any of a particular faith. However, in describing the encounter, it is only possible to do so through one’s adopted filters. Let us say then, that the Spiritual Reality of the encounter with the Divine superscedes the temopral and limited reality of the filters.

I had, when I was younger, a kind of encounter that literally knocked me out of my understanding of the world as I thought it was. Indeed, it became abundantly and incontrovertably clear that the world as I knew it was in fact built on my consenting to dynamics and paramaters of one kind or another, either imaginary of corresponding to a more substantial relaity. Being of reasonable intelligence, I tried with every toool availabel to me to integrate my experience by means of teh very strong RC paradigm I lived by at the time. It just didn’t work.

So, I put it aside without destroying it, but with a view to discovering if there was some way of integrating my experience by explanations outside the church. I did this wiht a view that had both the Church and the World having in common a God, and that man is fallible and incomplete.

Indeed, I di find a system that not only accounted for my experience, but allowed me a clear cognative line to include and syntesize my own experience, the world as it seemed to be, and the Church. That system has over the last thirty odd years proved to be increasingly accomodating in its fundamental ability to reconcile systems seemingl disparate in form, but not in substance.

The essence of this system is a form of self knowledge not ordinarily experienced by most folks. It happende to me in an unceremonious and unannounced way, but it changed my perception of reality, as I said. Butnow things make sense that didn’t before, and with far greater ease. Yet, I would not recommend my understanding to anyone. It is something arrived at, not aquired, as is faith. And for those in my position of arrival by discovery, there can be no other way. Yet, to the “fathful” it seems inexplicable and to some even blasphemous. It is not. it is simply the way things have been since God made the world, so to speak.

I would think that by now some readers will have given up on this ramble, and that is well and good and as it should be. As I said, I do not recommend my way, ancient and tried as it is. It is a Way only for a few. It is the way of esoteric Catholicism, one of the many names it might go by. Few can take it because it will destroy the understanding of the world one might currently have. But the New world is Real and demands utter respnsibility. In fact another name for it is, indeed, “The Path Of Absolute Responsibility.”

So, JD, if you are still with me, and haven’t “hung up” on this note, try going here for a more “Catholic” take on what I am saying: amazon.com/Basic-Self-Knowledge-Harry-Benjamin/dp/0877281629 You can read the prefatory material there and get a more historical perspective, and one that I hope will explain to you why I might come off the way I do.

We are not engaged here in a game, though it has some aspects of that. I feel it is incumbent on us to go according to our conscience. I have done so in my own case, and have only experienced thereby the unfolding of a greateer and more consitent understanding, one which accomodates a radical understanding of the nature of religion, ours in particular, since I was a very zealous and learned advocate of it. Whether you agree or disagree with the stated face of it, I hope that you are clear that for me it is not an intellectual exercise, but a living Reality. We are each where we are by the law of our Being. I am not here to proselytize or convert, I amonly speaking of my experience because you asked. I pray that it is of some meaning to you. If not, that is fine too. At least I respected your request for explication.

As for Aquinas, IMHO, he had a realization consitent with the deepest possible as pointed to in the work linked to above. I also feel that had he the means to communicate directly with the many who have had a similar experience, Catholic or not, they would all have been in agreement as to the Nature of their encounter.

BD, FZPC
 
As to Eternity or Eternality, it has no dimension of duration. It is one of the Big Three fundamentaly erroneous interpretations attached partiuclarly to christianist religons. Mixing the Timeless Nature of God with something completely in another dimension is at the root of the highly developed misinterpretation of God having certain kinds of agency. To say that God does or does not do X is equally worng from the standpoint of eternality.
I just happened upon this thread and had difficulty understanding what the discussion is exactly about. That is, I find the statement above rather ambiguous. By ambiguous I mean that greater clarity is required since the statement, as it reads, is capable of various interpretations. In the interest of clarity, perhaps you could answer the following questions with suitable explication:
  1. What are the alleged “Big Three” errors?
  2. Are the terms “eternity” and “eternality” being used by you as synonymous? If not, provide your definition of each term.
  3. What are the reputed “certain kinds of agency” that you seem to say God does not have?
  4. Why, in your words, is it wrong to “say that God does or does not do X?”
 
Itinerant1,
  1. the alleged “Big Three” are that A) etrnity has duration, B) that God is separate from Creation, and C) Incarnation, Redemption, Passion Death, and Resurection are Real and actual esoteric events distinct from the exoteric history they have been made into and are obscured by. This misunderstanding is the root cause of the exoteric separation of the Abarhamic family of religions and of the separtoin of the Abrahamic religions from the Eastern Religions and Philosophies. It is also why the esoteric forms of each one of those diverse religions is in essential harmony.
  2. Etrenality is the adjectival form of eternity
  3. While Gos is the ultimate Source of any action, there is not a God who is a Personal agent of any action in a subjet/object sense, unless we are talking aof a hypothetical being within the quale of manifestation other than Supreme Being.
  4. See 3)
Glad you asked. Maybe now even if you wander, you have a door/adore to go through to be Still and know that I AM 1.
 
JD, I feel similarly about your posts. You display an even handedness that seems to be lacking a great deal in many. Even if we might disagree in some areas, I have a great respect for you and wish to keep that honor from you as well.

[SNIP]
Detales:

Thank you for your well thought out reply, I did go to the book site and read the pages that were made available to someone anticipating the purchase of the book. I may have to buy it as the primary pages said not nearly enough to give me much of an idea of how any of it applies to historical Catholicism. It is understood that this was the purpose of the introductory pages, so, I am not upset in any way.

Granted, I have not read as much of St. Thomas as I want to. In time, perhaps I will get enough to understand what he was thinking when he wrote that his life-work was a “lot of straw.” But, I have read enough of him to know pretty much how he would think at certain times, and in certain circumstances. Over the past few decades I have read numerous people who have professed to have read and understood Aquinas, but, upon reading them, I discovered that they were merely arrogant. (One of the best writers to understand Aquinas is Dr. Bonnette, who has (name removed by moderator)ut into these forums on occasion.)

In the mean time, there are things said about Aquinas that are consistent with his thought and things that are inconsistent with it. His 5 Ways are mostly misunderstood by everyone. We, and I am including myself, are so steeped in “Positivism” that we cannot bear to think of causality in any other way except the most superficial. All of this makes me a little skeptical when people make assertions about Aquinas and what he was thinking. You know what I mean.

It appears that the used copies of Basic Self-Knowledge are cheap enough that it is worth the purchase, sight unseen. I’ll let you know when I start reading it. In the mean time, please paraphrase from it, in your responses herein, or write the actual text, from it, for explanations that it can do that you don’t feel that you would be regarded as a primary resource for. Whenever you do, if you would, please send a private message to me letting me know in what thread I must look to read it.

Thanks a lot,
jd
 
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