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Paul423
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In most philisophical circles, eternity is said to be the absence of time rather than infinite amounts of time. If this is true, would it be accurate to describe eternity as more of a place or another dimension?
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astroalbert
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I have always personally reasoned that eternity is outside of the human creation of time, which in of itself is one dimension.
It goes beyond time, it goes beyond our senses as we know it.
God is humongous, yet he cannot be described in human terms.
Words can merely point to the concept of God, rather than describe God.
Eternity with God is difficult to reason since we depend on schedules, however I would compare it to spending time with someone we really love, in the sense that time does not become a concern on our minds; this is kind of the example of the dictum “time flies when you’re having fun”.
Just my take on this.
It goes beyond time, it goes beyond our senses as we know it.
God is humongous, yet he cannot be described in human terms.
Words can merely point to the concept of God, rather than describe God.
Eternity with God is difficult to reason since we depend on schedules, however I would compare it to spending time with someone we really love, in the sense that time does not become a concern on our minds; this is kind of the example of the dictum “time flies when you’re having fun”.
Just my take on this.
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dribnhoj
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I always thought eternity was just the concept of forever, much like the circle itself. Which goes on and on, back and forth never really beginning nor ending. It’s like time exists without purpose in eternity, it is and always will be with and without us. So where does one find the line between limitless time and no time…is there a difference? Either way, surrounding us is the idea of a universe that will always exist beyond our understanding, for it is eternal. An eternal hell never really fit well with me, saying that you will spend an eternity in hell for a sin or whatever. Yet, they seem to want to dock you time for your sins, until you go to the wonderful Heaven after you pay. Not my concern, but the wording to me is off.
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paduard
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I am not so sure that most philosophers think that eternity is the absence of time. But you may be right inasmuch as the majority of them may think so. For me it is more logical to think in terms that eternity consists in an infinite amounts of time; for that must have appeared as so I conjecture for Adam before the Fall inasmuch as he knew at that stage of his bodily existence that he wouldn’t ever die.
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IgnatianAthlete
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My position is definitely that eternity is a total absence of time. My favorite way I’ve heard it described, I don’t remember where, is being one everlasting moment. We cannot possibly imagine what this is like, of course, but that’s the gist of it.
Now, as for whether this means that eternity constitutes another dimension, that really depends on what you mean by “dimension”. Do you mean dimension in the relativistic sense, in which our universe in which we live in is made up of three spatial dimensions, and one of time? Being removed from the mortal, fallen universe, I would suspect there are no dimensions whatsoever in eternity.
If by dimension, you mean the more common sense of another universe, then I think that such would depend on how limited your definition of universe is. I would say it is not a proper universe at all, but rather the absence of the same; especially if “all universes contain matter” is held as true, seeing as matter and time are so closely related. Heaven is a particular aspect of eternity; but eternity is simply a condition in which matter and time do not exist, therefore, it would really depend on what qualifies a separate dimension.
Now, as for whether this means that eternity constitutes another dimension, that really depends on what you mean by “dimension”. Do you mean dimension in the relativistic sense, in which our universe in which we live in is made up of three spatial dimensions, and one of time? Being removed from the mortal, fallen universe, I would suspect there are no dimensions whatsoever in eternity.
If by dimension, you mean the more common sense of another universe, then I think that such would depend on how limited your definition of universe is. I would say it is not a proper universe at all, but rather the absence of the same; especially if “all universes contain matter” is held as true, seeing as matter and time are so closely related. Heaven is a particular aspect of eternity; but eternity is simply a condition in which matter and time do not exist, therefore, it would really depend on what qualifies a separate dimension.
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paduard
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Sorry but I cannot agree with this. That is - Heaven is not a condition in which matter and time do not exist.
Christ is in Heaven, body complete - matter complete. Same for Our Blessed Mother. Same when the general resurrection occurs at the last day.
God Bless.
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MarcoPolo
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Not sure if the Pope means “dimension” in the same way, but in Theology of the Body, Audience 67, he says:*Thus, in the “other world,” the object of vision will be that mystery hidden from eternity in the Father, a mystery that has in time been revealed in Christ to be fulfilled unceasingly by the work of the Holy Spirit; that mystery will become, if one may express it in this way, the content of eschatological experience and **the “form” of human existence as a whole in the dimension of the “other world.”**And in audience #68:…I]n the direction of that “beginning” to which Christ appeals in his dialogue with the Pharisees about the indissolubility of marriage beginning it was not so referring to Adam & Eve]; in the second place in the direction of the “other world” to which the Teacher calls the attention of his listeners in the presence of the Sadducees who “say there is no resurrection.” … What the human body is in the realm of man’s historical experience is not completely cut off from these two dimensions of his existence… When we continue in the two directions indicated by Christ’s word and attach ourselves to the experience of the body in the dimension of our earthly existence (that is, in the historical dimension), we can make a certain theological reconstruction of what might have been the experience of the body on the basis of man’s revealed “beginning” and also what it will be in the dimension of the other world. The possibility of such a reconstruction, which extends our experience of man/body, indicates, at least indirectly, the coherence of the theological image of man in these three dimensions, which come together in constituting the theology of the body.*So in this second quote, you have JP2 referring to dimensions in the “beginning”––i.e. pre-Fall Adam & Eve, as well as the "other world––i.e. resurrected man, as well as the third “dimension” which is the man of history, or what we experience here in time.
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Blue_Horizon
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Paul you use the word very loosely. “Eternity” is by no means univocal in meaning as contradictory posts below make clear.
Personally it seems to me you are using the word as a loose alternative for “heaven.”
This is NOT how philosopher’s use the word.
Please provide better context/definition re your question…
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IgnatianAthlete
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Blessings to you as well. And I do accept that Christ is bodily in heaven, as is His Virgin Mother; I hold these as mysteries of faith. However I do not agree that humankind at large will enter heaven bodily. One peculiar bit of heretical (or at least, heterodox) theology I am vain enough to have pretense to states that heaven and the earthly kingdom yet to come are both very real afterlives; heaven being the kingdom of the Son, and earth being the kingdom of the Father which in the Our Father we pray will come. Bodily resurrection will be to the New Earth, while spiritual existence in heaven will remain eternal. The Holy Spirit’s kingdom is within us, and is the “ticket of admission” to both other kingdoms. These are just my personal musings and interpretations however, and I take them with a grain of salt and would never ask anyone else to except them. It’s just my take.
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Aloysium
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We are eternal.
This moment is eternal if I ignore the content and focus on the fact that wherever and whenever I am, have been, and will be, it will have been in the moment.
Time passes: cycles turn, things change and come into and out of being; happening, always now.
This now has no boundaries, no shape. While stuff happens, the moment that contains it all has no beginning and no end.
It is here; it is being, manifesting itself in seemingly endless patterns.
It is God’s spirit, in finite form.
Created in time past; holding this aging body until it too will pass.
My now, my being, within God’s Now which contains all moments.
This moment is eternal if I ignore the content and focus on the fact that wherever and whenever I am, have been, and will be, it will have been in the moment.
Time passes: cycles turn, things change and come into and out of being; happening, always now.
This now has no boundaries, no shape. While stuff happens, the moment that contains it all has no beginning and no end.
It is here; it is being, manifesting itself in seemingly endless patterns.
It is God’s spirit, in finite form.
Created in time past; holding this aging body until it too will pass.
My now, my being, within God’s Now which contains all moments.
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catholictiger
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I would say it would be
assuming time is a higher dimension than the third dimension
assuming time is a higher dimension than the third dimension
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paduard
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Well put! - inclined very much to agree with this in the way you have put it.
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Paul423
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BlueHorizon: My interest in philosophy is still quite new (i.e. I’m noob) and I’m going off of what I’ve read/heard so far. Anyways, my understanding is that time is confined to the material universe. It has a beginning and an ultimate end. God, on the other hand, doesn’t; He transcends our universe and therefore transcends time, which is what I believe is meant when we say God is eternal. So It seems to me that eternity (noun) would be described as the absence of time and this is the definition I’ve read/heard most often, rather than an infinite amount of time. This where the whole dimension thing comes in. Is it correct to describe eternity (the absence of time) as another dimension of sorts since it is outside our material universe (where time is “located” so to speak). Again, just now getting into philosophy, so I could be totally offin left field here.
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openmind77
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Let me add my 2 cents worth. Even if you don’t believe, it will give you something to ponder upon.
It is not true that time exists only in the physical world. It also exists in other worlds except that it is experienced differently as well as appearing to move at a different rate. The other worlds (or planes) can be named as - astral plane, mental plane, intuitional plane, soul plane and only above that is the divine plane where God truely resides As you rise higher and higher through these planes, time appears to move faster and faster until you are in the divine plane where rate of time is infinite (in other words it does not exist) and past, present, future are fused into one. From the divine plane, you can see all events happening on earth simultaneously as if in a panorama of time slices.
Nobody has actually said so, but I would guess that time on lower planes than the physical may actually run slower, so a moment in hell may seem to be pretty long.
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billcu1
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I was kind of wondering this. The Bible has spoken of the 7 heights. Changed or more known as “heavens” which is not exactly the same. To me Dimension is more of a mathematical term. As well as “plane”. Which is like spatial or some kind of geometry. Be it Analytical or abstract.
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billcu1
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The BG also says there are planets like ours that instead of having oceans of salt have oceans of milk, oceans of alcohol, and oceans of differering things. How exactly does the mahabarata or other cosmology speak of these planets? Are they in our “dimensional universe”?
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Blue_Horizon
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In terms of traditional Catholic philosophy (based on Aquinas and the Schoolmen) I believe you are correct that God is outside of time. Angels also exist outside of time (being non corporeal) though there is still the concept of before and after.
I believe it is philosphically possible for the universe to be eternal (without a beginning) but revelation denies this possibility, it was created.
“Heaven” is a complicate issue as it means many things. The glorified are “with God” body and soul (e.g. Mary) which means in some way heaven is a “place” and “time” exists. In other ways heaven is not a place but signifies participation in the divine nature.
Ancient cosmologies speak of 7 heavens. God “resides” (not really) in the outer 7th heaven known to ancients as the Empyrean Heaven. Is it a place? Hard to know what “place” really means when we talk about glorified bodies. It is philosophically possible for place/matter to be without extension which makes it difficult to discuss!
I do not believe it is correct to speak of God existing in another dimension. God is a Spiritual substance not a corporeal one. Its like saying how heavy is a light beam isn’t it?
The two cannot be related.
It would perhaps be more applicable to ask where Jesus’s glorified body dwells?
Even this is often denied of being in some other n-dimension.
Finally, an infinity of finite quantity is not the same as Eternity even if such a thing were possible. I believe Aquinas says something like this in Summa Contra Gentiles.
Its a difficult read without an understanding of basic Scholastic Philosophy but the very question you asked was apparantly debated in medieval times.
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openmind77
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I have no idea about such a claim in the Bhagavat Gita or the Mahabharata (do you have a link or reference I can check?) But actually it does not matter, I don’t take these claims that seriously, after all Mahabharata is supposed to be poetry.
BTW these planes I talked about are mentioned under "Lokas’ on wikipedia (they have other names than the physical/astral/mental/intuitional/soul/divine that I mentioned, BhurLoka is the physical plane). There are actually two divine planes, making seven in all.
I have heard it said that the top divine plane is of the Father, the next divine plane is of the Son and lower five planes (the bottom one is the physical plane) is of the Holy Spirit (by someone who tries to find equivalence between Hindu and Christian Gods).
I think the planes can be said to be dimensions because they are not separated in space (one plane is actually not ‘above’ the other). You can actually move from one plane to another without moving through space. So your consciousness could be in heaven while you are walking on earth!
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billcu1
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Ok I got that from a couple of books from ISKCON. Swami Prabupada’s people. That’s where my BG is from too. I mispoke. It’s not the BG. Is there a sloka in the BG concerning these “Lokas”?
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openmind77
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I am getting a bit uneasy because all this seems a bit offtopic - but to answer your question, I believe these Lokas are mentioned in the Puranas. The BG concentrates on life of earth and what we are supposed to do here (it does talk about heaven a bit).
To get back to the question - time moves faster as one moves up the planes - which means you can see further into the future as one moves up the planes. In the physical, we can predict with certainty what will happen in the next few seconds, in the astral it maybe be a few months and so on. On the highest plane of the Father you can see all of the future (and the past). On the second divine plane, you can not see all the future but you can still see pretty far (maybe that is why the Son does not know everything that the Father does).
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