Ethical Issue - abortion

  • Thread starter Thread starter livvius
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

livvius

Guest
Greetings: I am a catholic high school student completing year 12 and I am in desperate need of answers. I have an assignment which asks the question: Evaluate to what extent the personal responses of the religious adherent (the interviewee) on an ethical issue aligns with the ethical code of the religion. I have chosen the controversial topic of abortion and have written some questions that I would really appreciate if someone who has a strong grasp of Natural Moral Law and strong opinions on abortion, could answer.
 
I am willing to participate. Are you going through PM, or just here on the forums?
 
The Catholic Magisterium teaches that an embryo is a person from the moment of conception, and therefore the embryo is deserving of the same dignity and respect of that of a person. However, select Catholic Moral Theologians diverge; for example, Richard McCormick and Lisa Carhill believe that while the very early embryo is deserving of a great deal of dignity and respect, it is not yet a person.
  1. What are your beliefs concerning the status of the embryo?
  • "Do you believe that it is a person form the moment of conception that is deserving of dignity and respect equal to people?
  • "Do you believe that the rights of the mother and her family have precedence over the rights of the embryo? What about if there is a concern for the mothers health and welfare?
 
Last edited:
Yes, No, Doesn’t Change (the “embryo”, as in BABY, actually IS the mother’s “family”)
I edited this because you apparently edited your questions after you put them up.
I hope you don’t edit again because it could give a wrong impression of my answers as it just did.

Life Begins at Conception. The Baby is a Person from the Moment of Conception.

P.S. I don’t know who Richard McCormick or Lisa Carhill are, have never heard of them, don’t care what they think, and if they’re going around insisting that an “early embryo” is “not yet a person” then their bishop should be telling them to stop or else excommunicating them.
 
Last edited:
If you have not been aborted then you do not know what it means to do it to someone. In other words do as I say not as I would have done to me. Being a hippocrite or practicing hypocrisy.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for all of your responses so far, I am very grateful for your time that you have put into answering the first question 🙂
 
Ethical frameworks by definition, “refer to the system of principles, rules or standards by which human actions are judged right or wrong.” Deontology is the ethical framework that supports the theory that the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is (moral) right or (immoral) wrong, rather than based on the consequences of the action. Conversely, teleology is “a reason or explanation for something as a function of its end, purpose, or goal.” In other words, it is concerned with the consequences of the action, not whether or not the action is moral or immoral.
  1. What ethical approach underpins your position on abortion?
  • Do you believe that your viewpoint is concerned with the actions or the consequences of abortion?
 
One thing people try to argue is that it’s genetically human, but does not have legal “personhood” until some arbitrary time. That may kick in at the first detectable heartbeat, or at 20 weeks, or 25 weeks, or at birth, or three days after birth, or when it first smiles, or whenver---- but that’s ultimately an arbitrary designation, usually to allow infanticide up until that point.

So you’ll notice that these sorts of questions usually make use of the word “person” rather than “human”, which isn’t quite honest-- because it dehumanizes all of the discussion that takes place afterwards.
 
livvius said:
The Catholic Magisterium teaches that an embryo is a person from the moment of conception, and therefore the embryo is deserving of the same dignity and respect of that of a person. However, select Catholic Moral Theologians diverge; for example, Richard McCormick and Lisa Carhill believe that while the very early embryo is deserving of a great deal of dignity and respect, it is not yet a person.
  1. What are your beliefs concerning the status of the embryo?
  • "Do you believe that it is a person form the moment of conception that is deserving of dignity and respect equal to people?
  • "Do you believe that the rights of the mother and her family have precedence over the rights of the embryo? What about if there is a concern for the mothers health and welfare?
Click to expand...
  1. I don’t need to have beliefs on the status of human beings. All I need is sane observation of the world around me.
    We have science to tell us that at the moment of conception we have
    a unique human being with all the same potential as any other human being.
    Unique DNA distinct from the mother or any other person.
    Living
    Full human potential just like any other human being.
    Personhood is an arbitrary construct. Remind your teacher that at one time personhood was used to make black people 3/5 of a human being.
  2. If our society claims to have human rights, then the human being living in the womb has intrinsic human rights. While the the welfare of the mother and family are very important, they do not trump the rights of another human being to live.
    If the mother is in danger of death, then the principle of double effects is in play. To save the mother’s life, procedures can be done that may indirectly result in the death of the child. But never with the direct intent of killing another human being per se.
Observe: if the right of a human being to live is not respected, no other human rights exist, because human rights are proper to living human beings. Not cats. Not dead people. Not trees. Human rights assume living human beings.

The pro abortion argument is above all else, tragic stupidity. It is not a matter of divergent religious beliefs, but about being able to think well.
 
Last edited:
First of all, it’s spelled “hypocrite”.

Second of all, none of us have “been aborted” or we wouldn’t be alive talking here.

Third, you do not list your religion as Catholic but Other. I presume you are not Catholic and therefore the student OP should be aware of that so you do not bias his research project on Catholics.

Fourth, to the extent you meant if I haven’t had an abortion that means I can’t ever have an opinion or follow a teaching on those who do, I haven’t committed murder either but that doesn’t mean I can’t know it’s wrong, not commit it myself and agree with a church teaching that it’s wrong. I would further note that approximately 50 percent of the humans on earth physically cant ever have abortions, being male, but as humans who also might father children, they have a right to an opinion also.

Abortion is the willful killing of a human being. That is what the Church teaches and that’s what I believe. If you have a problem with that, then it’s your problem. I would no more have an abortion than I would stomp a puppy.
 
Last edited:
livvius said:
Do you believe that your viewpoint is concerned with the actions or the consequences of abortion?
Click to expand...
Both.
Abortion is the murder of an innocent life.
Life itself is of immeasurable value and the gift it is must be respected and valued.

Also,
The taking of innocent life diminishes the attitudes towards life by the society as a whole. This diminished view of life damages society forever.
 
1st response. Apologies for spelling hypocrite wrong.

2nd response. I dont know what to say.

3rd response. I do not have a problem being named as not Catholic.

4th response. I am going to say that I am not in favor of abortion at this time. As to the getting murdered argument being wrong, I would have to say this would be a “name your shepard” argument where if you have not eaten from the knowledge of good and evil then follow someone who you believes knows better.
 
Last edited:
livvius said:
The Catholic Magisterium teaches that an embryo is a person from the moment of conception, and therefore the embryo is deserving of the same dignity and respect of that of a person. However, select Catholic Moral Theologians diverge; for example, Richard McCormick and Lisa Carhill believe that while the very early embryo is deserving of a great deal of dignity and respect, it is not yet a person.
  1. What are your beliefs concerning the status of the embryo?
  • "Do you believe that it is a person form the moment of conception that is deserving of dignity and respect equal to people?
  • "Do you believe that the rights of the mother and her family have precedence over the rights of the embryo? What about if there is a concern for the mothers health and welfare?
Click to expand...
I consider personhood to be an absolute non argument in this debate. Personhood is not scientific in any way shape or form, it is purely a label applied by people based on their own standards. As history has shown us, it’s dangerous to say non “persons” don’t have right to life or any other right.

Science says human life begins at conception. Abortion is the willful termination of that life.
 
Last edited:
Natural Moral Law comes out of the deontological framework and is the theory that all things have a purpose in life. There are five principles that it states you must live accordingly in the order: To live, reproduce, learn, worship god and maintain order in society. Concerning abortion, the principles that come into question are ‘to live’ (sanctity of human life) and ‘to reproduce’.
  1. Concerning Natural Moral Law, which principles do you believe have priority in your decision making with regard to abortion?
 
Last edited:
Natural Moral Law has “worship God” at 4 behind living, reproduction and learning. This is flawed and wrong whether we’re discussing abortion or anything else. It should be at place 1 because without God we can’t do any of the other things. The Church would understand if we put it at place 2 because the survival instinct might take precedence over worship of God, and the Church recognizes that to give up your life for God is a heroic act of virtue that is not easy and that not everyone is capable of doing.

However, to have God down at spot 4 to me makes this model worthless. Into the trash bin with it then. Useless to me.
 
You are opening a huge can of worms.
So much has been said and written about abortion.
If I were you, I would try an alternative topic, perhaps euthanasia, the death penalty, domestic violence, lack of civility in society, feeding the poor, etc.
Needless to say, abortion is one of the big moral issues or our time. But there are many other huge issues placed on the back burner of the moral stove that do not get enough discussion.
Good luck in your assignment and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forum! 🙏🙏🙏
 
Thankyou 😊
However, I regret to say that I was not able to pick my topic as it was randomly selected for me, and I would have much preferred a topic like the ones you suggested. I completely understand that the questions I am asking are controversial as abortion is certainly a large bioethical issue, and so I am very grateful for all of the answers that everyone is giving me here on this forum!
 
To more directly answer your questions: the mother and her unborn child (which the embryo is) are both human beings (scientific fact) and both have right to life. As we are talking about two separate and unique lives, any argument about “my body” is not valid. Any argument that abortion is just the removal of a clump of cells is also not valid for the same reason.

Regarding the mother’s welfare - abortion is, always was, and forever will be a symptom of society’s failure to care for women in need, certainly desperate women who are carrying a child. Nothing more. It is not a statement of women’s empowerment, that is pro abortion rights propaganda. It is also not a solution or a cure for anything.

Mother’s “health” could mean a lot of things. if the mother’s life is in danger by the pregnancy, the Church teaches that treatment of this condition which saves her but may (not “WILL” but “MAY” - there’s a difference) end the pregnancy is acceptable. This is not deliberate and willful abortion.
 
For my assignment I am trying to address the these 3 criteria pertaining to abortion:
1.(point) As life begins at the moment of conception, (explanation) deliberate termination of a pregnancy at any gestational period is gravely immoral.
2. (point) The sanctity of life must always be upheld and (explanation) therefore abortion goes against the commandment of “thou shalt not kill”
3. the doctrine of double effect (DDE) (specifically in the case of ectopic pregnancy) is accepted as a justifiable ethical doctrine for cases that preserve the life of the mother. However, there are other more modern methods such as drugs or laser that specifically aim to terminate the foetus and preserve the fallopian tube. Is this still acceptable under the DDE?

If anyone has any points or opinions about these 3 points, I would love to hear them!

One thing that I don’t fully understand is the ‘primacy of the informed conscience’? Could anyone possibly explain this for me and how it could possibly be related to abortion?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top