Ethics of Fur

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Marfran said:
St. Francis called the Sun, Moon, animals and birds his brothers and sisters, because he recognized the connection that ALL creation has to God. I have no idea what your usage of the term “same rights” means here. All creation has the “right” to live as God intended them to
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Exactly, and St. Thomas Aquinas outlined how God intended them to be used.
. If God created an animal to fly, then it should fly. If God created an animal to run then it should run, etc.
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And God created them to be eaten as well.
And being created in the image of God, is ***exactly ***why we should care about, and be kind to animals and not abusive. Only we humans are capable of compassion, love, and mercy, because we are made in the image of God.
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Humans, created in the image of God should be selfish, materialistic, gluttonous, vain, hedonistic and cruel???
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Now where exactly did I say that. We have the potential to be so,
Or humans created in the image of God should be loving, compassionate, merciful and peace-loving?
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Correct.
Being made in the image of God is exactly why we should extend our compassion and mercy to those beneath us, just as Christ died for us, who are beneath and inferior to him.
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Exactly, and that is why we should never willing let an animal suffer while we harvest it. I’m glad we agree.
Being made in the image of God is exactly what theologians Andrew Linzey and Deborah Jones give us as the reason to be kind and merciful to our lesser brothers and sisters (St. Francis term).
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So which one of those two have been declared to be “Doctors of the Church”?

That is the highest rank of theologian that the Church recognizes. And if a lesser theologian contradicts a Doctor, I know which one I should give greater credence to.

And we should probably stick to theologians with a CATHOLIC Licentiate in Theology. Dr. Linzey is an Anglican, and Dr. Jones got her degree in “Animal Theology” from a University affilated with the Church of England, the University of Wales, not from a Catholic institution. She has no Licentiate from the Church.

So she, like Dr. Linzey, may instruct theology to Anglicans, but neither teach Catholic theology.
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If you are interested in some REAL Catholic theology, check out this document from the Vatican.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pa_acdlife_doc_20010926_xenotrapianti_en.html
As we have already observed, the possibility of working out such genetic modifications, using genes of human origin as well, is morally acceptable when done in respect for the animal and for biodiversity, and with a view to bringing significant benefits to man himself. Therefore, while recognizing that transgenesis does not compromise the overall genetic identity of the mutated animal or its species, and reaffirming man’s responsibility towards the created order and towards the pursuit of improving health by means of certain types of genetic manipulation, we will now enumerate some fundamental ethical conditions which must be respected:
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It then goes on to say that that animals should not be mistreated, care taken in the matter of offspring, and that the organs should be removed in one surgical procedure (as opposed to an eye now, a spleen later, a heart last)

So pretty much exactly what a catholic shouls believe on animal rights

It pretty much outlines that yes, it is ok to genetically modify animals, such as pigs, even to the extent of inserting human genes, and harvest their organs for transplant purposes.

Since Dr. Jones happens to be against this particular practice, that puts her at odds with the Vatican, and therefore not someone I should take as an authority on Catholic theology.
 
Brendan said:
And God created them to be eaten as well.
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Well, perhaps, but if one looks to the original creation stories, God created the animals to serve as companion to man, and Eden was a place where everyone lived on a vegetarian diet.

After the fall, then people began eating animals.
 
athansor said:
Well, perhaps, but if one looks to the original creation stories, God created the animals to serve as companion to man, and Eden was a place where everyone lived on a vegetarian diet.

After the fall, then people began eating animals.
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In which case, we were also meant to walk around naken, does anyone here advocate that either 😉

Either way, God told Noah that he could eat the animals He had created, so we certainly may without violating God’s intent.

And St. Francis would never have denied that God so instructed Noah, which was probably why he had no issues eating lamb with the Sultan.
 
athansor said:
Well, perhaps, but if one looks to the original creation stories, God created the animals to serve as companion to man, and Eden was a place where everyone lived on a vegetarian diet.

After the fall, then people began eating animals.
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Where do you get that idea? As far as I can see, it doesn’t say anything about Adam & Eve eating or not eating meat.
 
bigfootbob said:
Where do you get that idea? As far as I can see, it doesn’t say anything about Adam & Eve eating or not eating meat.
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In Genesis 1:29, God said,

“I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it – I give every green plant for food.”
 
So, do some of you think that not eating meat is a sin? Is it only OK to not eat meat for health reasons, or is it OK to be an ethical vegan. Do I have to start eating meat to be a good Catholic?
I still think the Catechism, which cautions against needless suffering of animals, applies to me, as I personally have no need to eat meat, wear animal skins, or consume dairy products. I’ve been told that my logic is faulty, but I can’t see where.
 
athansor said:
So, do some of you think that not eating meat is a sin? Is it only OK to not eat meat for health reasons, or is it OK to be an ethical vegan. Do I have to start eating meat to be a good Catholic?
I still think the Catechism, which cautions against needless suffering of animals, applies to me, as I personally have no need to eat meat, wear animal skins, or consume dairy products. I’ve been told that my logic is faulty, but I can’t see where.
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Of course not. If you don’t want to use animal products, that is your choice.
 
Does the Catholic Church have a position on eating veal? There are many exceptionally delicious Italian veal dishes. Do we go to hell if we eat those veal meals? [The Holy Father has lived in Rome for decades. Has he ever eaten any of those veal dishes?]

Liver. Goose liver. Often the geese are force fed.

So, are those animals considered confined?

Chickens and their eggs.

Rabbits in their hutches.

Cows in their milking stalls.

All of them confined.

Oh, the horror.

Next thing you know someone will condemn the use of malamutes and huskies for pulling sleds across the frozen landscape of Alaska.
 
athansor said:
So, do some of you think that not eating meat is a sin? Is it only OK to not eat meat for health reasons, or is it OK to be an ethical vegan. Do I have to start eating meat to be a good Catholic?
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No forgoing meat is not sinful, Heck, we’re meatless on Fridays, in fact mostly even vegatarian ( but not vegan).

If done as a form of fasting, it is a spirtual good. But for anything to be fasting, it has to first be acknowledged as either a good, or at least morally neutral.

A great example. I have a friend who is a cloistered Benedictine monk. They are vegatarian (not vegan) Mon-Sat as a form of fasting. But they have meat every Sunday, as Sunday are a mini Easter and thus fasting is not appropriate. They also eat meat on Liturgical Feast Days, for the same reason.
I still think the Catechism, which cautions against needless suffering of animals, applies to me, as I personally have no need to eat meat, wear animal skins, or consume dairy products. I’ve been told that my logic is faulty, but I can’t see where.
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OK, what if the animal doesn’t suffer when it either raised or killed. Say, I go hunting a free range deer, and I kill it with a head shot with a high caliber rifle. From the physics perspective, the round is supersonic, so the deer doesn’t even hear it coming. Biologically, the round destroys the brain faster than the nerve impulses can be processed.

So no suffering involved. What is the issue there?
 
The most rigorous of Catholic abstinence rules say that we abstain from eating meat only on Friday.

So we can eat meat the other six days of the week.

What can be plainer than that.

Not sure if we are COMMANDED to eat meat on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. But we certainly PERMITTED to eat meat.

Gotta do something with the skin of the animal and the furry part attached to the skin.

If we can wear the furry stuff, then why not raise animals just for the fur and feed the meat of the furry animals back to the live animals.

Many of the fur bearing critters are omniverous and will eat most anything anyway.

[So, what is the issue here, anyway?]
 
fultonfish said:
Does the Catholic Church have a position on eating veal? There are many exceptionally delicious Italian veal dishes. Do we go to hell if we eat those veal meals? [The Holy Father has lived in Rome for decades. Has he ever eaten any of those veal dishes?]

Liver. Goose liver. Often the geese are force fed.

So, are those animals considered confined?

Chickens and their eggs.

Rabbits in their hutches.

Cows in their milking stalls.

All of them confined.

Oh, the horror.

Next thing you know someone will condemn the use of malamutes and huskies for pulling sleds across the frozen landscape of Alaska.
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Read what ourPopesaid about foi grais ( excuse my misspelling). Use ofanimals compassionately to help us and as companions is not wrong.
 
Marfran said:
St. Francis called the Sun, Moon, animals and birds his brothers and sisters, because he recognized the connection that ALL creation has to God. I have no idea what your usage of the term “same rights” means here. All creation has the “right” to live as God intended them to. If God created an animal to fly, then it should fly. If God created an animal to run then it should run, etc. And being created in the image of God, is ***exactly ***why we should care about, and be kind to animals and not abusive.

Only we humans are capable of compassion, love, and mercy, because we are made in the image of God.

Humans, created in the image of God should be selfish, materialistic, gluttonous, vain, hedonistic and cruel??? Or humans created in the image of God should be loving, compassionate, merciful and peace-loving? Being made in the image of God is exactly why we should extend our compassion and mercy to those beneath us, just as Christ suffered & died for us, just as he cared about us, who are beneath and inferior to him.

Being made in the image of God is exactly what theologians Andrew Linzey and Deborah Jones give us as the reason to be kind and merciful to our lesser brothers and sisters (St. Francis term).

P.S. Without the Sun there is no life here on Earth. We ARE all connected.
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👍👍
 
severus68 said:
I wander how many need to hunt to eat. To hunt for the thrill is sickening. It is not sport. The animals do not have a choice. There is something evil about enjoying the fear of an animal in pursuing it and then killing it. Also who are these who want parts of dead animals on their walls, on their floors and on them?
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severus68 said:
Animals are feeling beings too. If a hunted animal does not feel fear or apprehension, it would just sit or stand there to be shot or blundgened to death.
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Have you ever been hunting?
 
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