Ethics of Fur

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I was intrigued by the size of the thing. Wild minks around here, anyway, are nowhere near that large. That’s one honking big mink.
Yes it was!!!
The second paragraph reminds me of the “If you know what was in hot dogs, you would never eat one.” thing people say.
And I want to know what is in those too! As consumers we should have all the information on how our products are made and what’s in them. Same goes for the fur coat. The consumer has the right to know.
One could as easily say “If you knew how many rodent hairs and body parts are in your healthy, whole-grain bread, you would never eat it.” I once had a fellow who worked in a spice processing factory tell me what all gets in the pepper, and it’s mighty bad. Other spices have awful things in them too, but pepper, he said, is the worst. Almost nothing we eat is without some kind of repulsive aspect to it. We just don’t know about it.

And, of course, there’s shoe leather, purse leather, the dog and cat food you feed your pets. On the pet food, here’s a cheery thought. A fellow who manufactures it told me that dogs in particular love the smell of decaying flesh. Their sense of smell is about 1000 times as keen as ours, so they can smell it when we can’t. So, dog food manufacturers like to put a bit of it in the dog food to give it that “overripe” whiff that makes it attractive to dogs. The usual source is what they call “farm deads”, the animals that die of natural causes on farms, particularly poultry. They pile them, and people like my friend come around and gather them up. NEVER taste your dog’s food, no matter what the ads say is in it. Never!
Actually, dogs DO like the smell of decaying flesh, and animals can digest bacteria in meat that we can not. I do not feed any animals commercial pet food because it contains all the hormones, anti-biotics, chemicals and pesticides found in human “factory farmed” foods–and cancer and other diseases are epidemic in the human and animal populations now from eating these foods.
 
If you pose for a photo it is staged. This applies to **ALL **photos. Portraits are an obvious example of a staged photo. If you (or I, or anyone else) stands in front of a house, smiles, and poses for the camera–that is a staged photo. Who knows what’s going on inside of the house–it could be unclean, messy, unwashed dishes pilling up in the sink, laundry piled on all pieces of furniture–there could be no furniture at all in it… An unposed photo is called a candid. You walk into the house, unannounced, and start snapping photos of what’s inside. You are in the factory snapping pictures while people work… unposed…
I see no evidence that the subjects of the photo are posing.
I believe you are making it up and now trying to force the picture into what you want people to believe.

How about we simply judge the picture on what is there and not what we wish were there?
 
I do not understand why it’s better that animals never exist than that they exist in conditions better than they would if they happened to exist in the wild.

I have never supported buying blood diamonds. But most diamonds do not come from there, and diamond mining does support people; often better than they would be supported without the mining. It’s fine with me if your fiance buys your daughter a manmade diamond or no diamond at all. It’s none of my business what he does.

Your last statement is the one I have a problem with. You have not said what your source of knowledge is about poultry farms. But your opinion is obviously very negative about them. Perhaps you have been in integrator houses that are horrible. I don’t know. I have been in many big integrator houses and I grew up on a farm where we raised chickens “Old McDonald’s Farm” style. Commercial integrator houses are not cruel. Even processing is not cruel. I have been in poultry plants too, and have watched the process from start to finish. I have seen some of the films put out by some organizations; some linked by people on CAF, and the ones I have seen totally misrepresent what commercial poultry growing is like. The people who made the films I have seen really are trying to impose their moral or ethical beliefs on others by misrepresentation. I do not accuse you of that. But if one’s opposition to eating, say, chicken, is based on some of those phony films, and if one proselitizes people against eating chicken based on those mistaken understandings, then, in my opinion that is, indeed, at least a product of neo-Puritanical attempt to impose one’s moral values on another. Those who make those hoked-up films are definitely doing it. It is akin to those people who imposed the Volstead Act on the U.S. by making it seem that “demon rum” was universally immoral in its effects. It wasn’t, but the real motivation for the Volstead Act were the moral convictions of people who were against alcohol for those reasons. It was just one more exacerbation of a Puritanism that the U.S. seems to find difficult to fully shake. Sometimes, as with the Volstead Act, such people sometimes manage to write their peculiar moral convictions into law.

I have also seen it opined on CAF by some that cattle are typically raised in confinement. I have said before that very, very few are and, except in the case of some veal calves (and I don’t favor that) it’s economically absurd. I raise cattle. I live in an area where ranching is very big. I have traveled widely in other ranching areas. And I know it’s just not true.

So why do people say it is? Some, I am sure, repeat it out of ignorance. Some have their moral positions on eating beef (or any meat, usually) and misrepresent it in order to impose their ethical or religious beliefs on others by making it seem cruel (and thus immoral) when it’s neither.

Possibly I am overreacting to some of the posts in here. Can’t say which ones and I’m too tired to go back and check them all again. But I get the distinct feeling that some are trying to make Catholics believe meat-eating or fur-wearing are immoral, when the Church doesn’t teach anything of the sort. The premise some use to cause others to deviate from the Church actually teaches is to maintain that it’s cruel and abusive in practice and is immoral for that reason, in the same sort of way that setting kittens on fire for fun would be considered immoral by the Church. One would not be unreasonable in concluding that doing so could be rightly considered an imposition of moral idiosyncrasies.
If you can tell me which sources you would not discount I would be happy to provide links about the issues of CAFO’s - not activist films but reports that have influenced my opinion.

For example I would never post information from PETA, or some random blog - would you want articles published in newspapers, research from the Sierra Club or HSUS, University studies, or the EPA? If you let me know what you would accept as valid information I’ll work to get them posted.

I do not believe anyone in the thread has made a suggestion that fur (or meat) be made illegal. To the point of breeding animals into existence - some find problem with backyard breeders of small dogs (when there are animals being put to death in pounds), others with animals raised for fur or food (when there area alternatives that meet the needs) -

I do believe it is possible to continue to have a respectful discussion on this even if we disagree - I do not feel you are trying to impose your opinion on me - and hope you do not feel that I am trying to impose mine on you.

And just for clarification the comment about my daughter’s engagement ring was a direct response regarding imposing opinion on someone - what I was trying to say (and obviously missed the point since that isn’t what you understood) was that I didn’t tell her this is what she had to have, or that she couldn’t have a diamond - but she grew up in our home where such discussions have taken place, she knows these missionaries too - so this was just referencing the imposition of opinion
 
No I didn’t.
I explicitly said otherwise.

Perhaps you should go back and reread the pertinent posts.

If your responses toward me are being influenced by a misinterpretation of what is actually there, I am uncertain how to proceed.
I owe you an apology
In the thread Killing Animals for “Sport” I did indeed misinterpret your response

**I wrote - **
I think some use the term ‘lifestyle choice’ in a derogatory manner (implying something un-Christian) - but I will assume you are just saying that it is the way one chooses to live their life, and not take umbrage
**your response - **
Justify or reinforce is of little difference here.
You are still interpreting the CCC to say something that enforces your lifestyle choice.
And yes, I do not use lifestyle choice in a derogatory manner.
You will see quotes around it when that happens.
When I read ‘and yes’ I missed the ‘not’ - so - I did indeed consider that this was disrespectful, and see another case where trying to communicate by forum presents some real challenges - I am very very glad to have clarified this with you - I hope you will accept my apology - :imsorry:

I know we disagree on this issue and my understanding of this part of the CCC that we were discussing - but I really never want to get upset or cause someone else to get upset. Blessings
 
**And the point of showing how these animals actually live, how they are killed, and their pelts being removed from ther dead bodies, goes to understanding the reality of the process. If a woman who wants to purchase a $5,000.00 mink coat were to see how the 40 minks that died for her coat lived, and were killed and skinned, she might actually change her mind about wanting one. **
And the point I have made over and over, but I might as well be beating my head against a brick wall :banghead: is that I have seen how these animals actually live, how they are killed, and how their pelts are removed from their dead bodies. I understand the entire process. And I don’t have a problem with it. I’ve pointed out that I have concern for animals and it is inhumane to cause an animal to suffer uselessly.
 
And the point I have made over and over, but I might as well be beating my head against a brick wall :banghead: is that I have seen how these animals actually live, how they are killed, and how their pelts are removed from their dead bodies. I understand the entire process. And I don’t have a problem with it. I’ve pointed out that I have concern for animals and it is inhumane to cause an animal to suffer uselessly.
You have a very good point. You have experienced fur farms firsthand, and you know more about it than any of us.
 
I stand corrected - the original post referenced both Italian and Latin - as I speak neither I thought the text that was referenced was the original Latin - but now we have another language to go through -

So then in the Italian it says both useless and indiscriminately - while in English it simply says needlessly … I interpret this to mean I have no ‘need’ for meat therefore this does indeed support my interpretation - you are of course at liberty to a different understanding - or perhaps you simply believe that you need meat.

You have previously said directly in a post directly to me that you use the term ‘lifestyle choice’ regarding my choosing to be a vegan in a derogatory manner. I would not know how else to interpret this but to say there there is a lack of respect - and when asked about it you defended your position.

If you can point to anything I have said to you which is lacking in respect I will certainly apologize - you find me to be stubborn because I find the CCC supports my ‘lifestyle’ choice - I try to do embody my faith, as I am sure you do. Our faith isn’t something to be practiced once a week for an hour, but rather as you know we are called to live our faith. I can’t leave my faith out of anything - it is what drives my life. In what I eat, what I wear, I have found it better reflected by omitting animals suffering and death because in my daily life their suffering and death is needless.

Therefore I can not leave the Church out of anything I chose to do - you obviously feel very passionate about this topic - and feel judged. I can only speak to how this has resonated in my life, and do not offer judgement on you or anyone else that hunts or eats meat -

Blessings,
Question…and forgive me if this is too personal, but what percent of your life do you spend evangelizing about your faith, rather than love for creation?
 
I do not feed any animals commercial pet food because it contains all the hormones, anti-biotics, chemicals and pesticides found in human “factory farmed” foods–and cancer and other diseases are epidemic in the human and animal populations now from eating these foods.
Are cancer and other diseases epidemic in the human and animal populations because they are eating “all the hormones, anti-biotics [sic], chemicals and pesticides found in human ‘factory farmed’ foods”

OR

Are cancer and other disease epidemic in the human and animal populations because humans and animals now live longer because they are better fed?
 
Question…and forgive me if this is too personal, but what percent of your life do you spend evangelizing about your faith, rather than love for creation?
Well, I’ve spent the last 32 years working with a Catholic missionary organization - so in fact that is what I do with the vast majority of my life. 🙂
 
Are cancer and other diseases epidemic in the human and animal populations because they are eating “all the hormones, anti-biotics [sic], chemicals and pesticides found in human ‘factory farmed’ foods”

OR

Are cancer and other disease epidemic in the human and animal populations because humans and animals now live longer because they are better fed?
You know there are numerous studies that point to the impact of eating factory farmed meat / dairy / poultry - I know you don’t agree with the issues related to fur because you grew up on a fur farm, but would you grant that it is possible that there is a possibility that some of the people who have issues about this topic may have some accurate information to present?
 
You know there are numerous studies that point to the impact of eating factory farmed meat / dairy / poultry - I know you don’t agree with the issues related to fur because you grew up on a fur farm, but would you grant that it is possible that there is a possibility that some of the people who have issues about this topic may have some accurate information to present?
4elise, when I see the inaccuracies presented about the fur trade, I’m obviously going to mistrust other statements that are made by the same people. I also don’t believe in “global warming” due to the fact that Mars’ temperature is increasing, and I don’t think it is because of Earth’s pollution…
 
Question…and forgive me if this is too personal, but what percent of your life do you spend evangelizing about your faith, rather than love for creation?
As a follow up response - I’ve started several threads -

Do you support International Missions - had 1 response
To the Ends fo the Earth - on the mission of the Church adgentes - no responses
A thread on Henri Nouwen - no responses -

No one seems interested in discussing these - but the debates about climate change / animal issues people will gladly post and argue and post - it is something I care about so I join in.
 
4elise, when I see the inaccuracies presented about the fur trade, I’m obviously going to mistrust other statements that are made by the same people. I also don’t believe in “global warming” due to the fact that Mars’ temperature is increasing, and I don’t think it is because of Earth’s pollution…
But the inaccuracies presented are inaccuracies as they relate to the fur farm you grew up on…

I think I remember early on in this discussion I think you conceded that fur that comes from China may well be the result of animals that have been mistreated - as for Global warming this isn’t the thread for it - and I wish you were right, sadly I don’t believe you are.
 
You know there are numerous studies that point to the impact of eating factory farmed meat / dairy / poultry - I know you don’t agree with the issues related to fur because you grew up on a fur farm, but would you grant that it is possible that there is a possibility that some of the people who have issues about this topic may have some accurate information to present?
Do you know there are a few studies out there that show soy isn’t all that good either? I have a book, called “Living well with hypothyroidsim” by Mary J ShomonDue to certain health issues in my family, that studies have shown could be linked to soy, there is no way I could use soy as a major source of protein for my family. Thyroid cancer, being one. Then my baby is allergic to soy, it causes him to have micro bleeds in his intestine. 😦

. Soy baby formula is not that good of a product. Dr, Sears, even says so in the book, “The baby book.” Soy lacks lactose, found in human milk, and babies need lactose.
 
As a follow up response - I’ve started several threads -

Do you support International Missions - had 1 response
To the Ends fo the Earth - on the mission of the Church adgentes - no responses
A thread on Henri Nouwen - no responses -

No one seems interested in discussing these - but the debates about climate change / animal issues people will gladly post and argue and post - it is something I care about so I join in.
You started a thread on Henri Nouwen? Awesome!
 
I think I remember early on in this discussion I think you conceded that fur that comes from China may well be the result of animals that have been mistreated -
Indeed, I would not trust fur from a Chinese fur farm, but then, I don’t trust much of anything that comes from China. The way they treat their own people is a crime.
 
Do you know there are a few studies out there that show soy isn’t all that good either? I have a book, called “Living well with hypothyroidsim” by Mary J ShomonDue to certain health issues in my family, that studies have shown could be linked to soy, there is no way I could use soy as a major source of protein for my family. Thyroid cancer, being one. Then my baby is allergic to soy, it causes him to have micro bleeds in his intestine. 😦

. Soy baby formula is not that good of a product. Dr, Sears, even says so in the book, “The baby book.” Soy lacks lactose, found in human milk, and babies need lactose.
Sorry if I’ve led the thread off topic… Fortunately there are many other sources of vegetable protein for those with a sensitivity to soy - and there is certainly nothing like mom for the best baby nutrition - most likely Dr. Sears would agree. Blessings -

There are probably only a few posts left before it gets closed around 1000 - most likely no one has changed their views about fur - some don’t have any issue with it - others of us still do - it isn’t all related to how animals are raised, if they have comfy lives - for me it just boils down to need and my understanding of the CCC **2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. **
 
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