Ethics of Fur

[Marfran]

I can’t speak for 4elise here, but I would say that I also don’t eat meat, etc. in part because of my faith. The Church teaches that we should treat animals with compassion, while noting that it is OK to consume animal products if necessary. So, I believe that one, animals have the capacity to suffer, two, killing animals for meat, especially as it is commonly done in modern practice, causes significant suffering, and three, that I don’t have any need for any animal products to live a healthy life.

To your question, though, as a Catholic, must we document all areas of our faith by the Bible? Do we not also have the traditions, examples and writing of our Church leaders and Saints to help us grow and enhance our faith? What about our own conscience?

From the Bible, I get that God’s idea of a perfect creation, life in the Garden of Eden, was meant to be a vegetarian existence. From the Church, I see that compassion for animals is a good thing. From my own conscience, I feel that not eating animal products is a better way for me to live, and has actually allowed me to grow closer to God and devote more time to other issues, like pro-life causes and working to ease poverty. It’s hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

Great post!!!

 

[4elise]

Let us never forget that part of the expense of an item is the time necessary to complete the task.

Even were the money involved for a home grown garden were pennies, the time necessary to care for and maintain is prohibitive to most people.

Just a caution for those that wish to believe the alternatives are ‘inexpensive’.

I work way more than a full time job - and growing veggies is SO easy to fit into that schedule in the little back yard I have - AND it is so satisfying to grow something and feed it to my family

 

[4elise]

So let me get this straight… You don’t eat meat, eggs, fish, etc. because of your faith? Did you come to this faith by reading things in the Bible?

Well… I’ll try to answer this in a simple way, and hope that you will respect my answer, as I offered this not to challenge anyone else, but to share why it makes sense to me.

When I learned about the way meat, poultry, eggs, and fish are raised TODAY - it has seemed to be to be inconsistent with my Catholic faith to continue to take part in this … the land and water pollution, the way the animals are treated, the impact on communities near CAFO’s — if I removed didn’t take part - that it is my small contribution - it is something I can do personally. If you have any specific questions on how I see this fitting my faith I’d be happy to answer.

 

[4elise]

I doubt St. Joseph could afford a Manhattan apartment on a carpenter’s salary. And there aren’t too many affordable apartments with use of the vegetable garden.

Oh my!
I’m sure you have misunderstood Marfran’s point… or maybe just trying to be ‘cute’!

 

[4elise]

It’s hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

I understand completely!
Thanks!

 

[severus68]

I can’t speak for 4elise here, but I would say that I also don’t eat meat, etc. in part because of my faith. The Church teaches that we should treat animals with compassion, while noting that it is OK to consume animal products if necessary. So, I believe that one, animals have the capacity to suffer, two, killing animals for meat, especially as it is commonly done in modern practice, causes significant suffering, and three, that I don’t have any need for any animal products to live a healthy life.

To your question, though, as a Catholic, must we document all areas of our faith by the Bible? Do we not also have the traditions, examples and writing of our Church leaders and Saints to help us grow and enhance our faith? What about our own conscience?

From the Bible, I get that God’s idea of a perfect creation, life in the Garden of Eden, was meant to be a vegetarian existence. From the Church, I see that compassion for animals is a good thing. From my own conscience, I feel that not eating animal products is a better way for me to live, and has actually allowed me to grow closer to God and devote more time to other issues, like pro-life causes and working to ease poverty. It’s hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

Thank ou for shaing that. I agree completely.Whenever I say the “Glory Be”, I ponder on the words “as it was in the beginning shall be…” If I can do things, bt by bit, to follow God’s plan, I can’t be wrong. I have started by becoming vegetarian.

 

[vz71]

Well, it is obvious you just say things without any basis and then when queried say the same things.

Wow.
Perhaps you should do some research before making such grandiose claims.

In the entire time that I have been a member of the CA forums, I have never stood on anything ‘as a matter of record’ before.

I never had to. No one bothers attempting to build a case using information that is documented false…at least until now.

 

[vz71]

I work way more than a full time job - and growing veggies is SO easy to fit into that schedule in the little back yard I have - AND it is so satisfying to grow something and feed it to my family

Not everyone is so blessed with such spare time on their hands.

 

[severus68]

Wow.
Perhaps you should do some research before making such grandiose claims.

In the entire time that I have been a member of the CA forums, I have never stood on anything ‘as a matter of record’ before.

I never had to. No one bothers attempting to build a case using information that is documented false…at least until now.

not making any claims, grandioseor otherwise,just a point about your method of discussion.

 

[PeterMuz]

To your question, though, as a Catholic, must we document all areas of our faith by the Bible? Do we not also have the traditions, examples and writing of our Church leaders and Saints to help us grow and enhance our faith? What about our own conscience?

From the Bible, I get that God’s idea of a perfect creation, life in the Garden of Eden, was meant to be a vegetarian existence. From the Church, I see that compassion for animals is a good thing. From my own conscience, I feel that not eating animal products is a better way for me to live, and has actually allowed me to grow closer to God and devote more time to other issues, like pro-life causes and working to ease poverty. It’s hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

Thank you, that was the point and were I was going to go with the response I got. Please show me writings of the early Church Fathers, or something in the Catechism that says that eating meat is wrong.

This argument about the Garden of Eden could also be used to say we should all be nudists.

If you feel that not eating meat has brought you closer to God and caused you to devote more of your time to things like the pro-life cause, GREAT! I’m all for it!! But you cannot give animals the same rights human beings, which is the next step in your line of reasoning.

 

[vz71]

Well, it is obvious you just say things without any basis and then when queried say the same things.

not making any claims, grandioseor otherwise,just a point about your method of discussion.

One quote does not square with the other.
In fact they are mutually exclusive.

On the one hand you make a claim…on the other you claim you are not.

So which one are we to believe?

 

[Marfran]

This argument about the Garden of Eden could also be used to say we should all be nudists.

Now there’s an interesting thought. I hadn’t heard that one before. You are a unique thinker!

If you feel that not eating meat has brought you closer to God and caused you to devote more of your time to things like the pro-life cause, GREAT! I’m all for it!! But you cannot give animals the same rights human beings, which is the next step in your line of reasoning.

If you want to have debates/discussions with Catholic vegans/vegetarians you might want to learn more about their line of reasoning. It is not as much about “animal rights” as it is about mercy and compassion, and being good stewards and caretakers of the Earth and the animals that God created. To try to understand the mindset of a Catholic vegan/vegetarian you can check out the web site of Catholic Concern for Animals, or the writings of Matthew Scully, Deborah Jones, or Andrew Linzey. There are other Catholic and/or Christian vegan/vegetarian theologians and ethicists, but I am not as yet familiar with their writings, so I only post references to those I am familiar with.

 

[PeterMuz]

Now there’s an interesting thought. I hadn’t heard that one before. You are a unique thinker!

If you want to have debates/discussions with Catholic vegans/vegetarians you might want to learn more about their line of reasoning. It is not as much about “animal rights” as it is about mercy and compassion, and being good stewards and caretakers of the Earth and the animals that God created. To try to understand the mindset of a Catholic vegan/vegetarian you can check out the web site of Catholic Concern for Animals, or the writings of Matthew Scully, Deborah Jones, or Andrew Linzey. There are other Catholic and/or Christian vegan/vegetarian theologians and ethicists, but I am not as yet familiar with their writings, so I only post references to those I am familiar with.

I’ve seen the website. At the very bottom of the page it says "Catholic Concern for Animals - Providing Christian education, research, study, instruction, teaching, theology, forum and publications concerning animal rights, welfare, God… First thing listed is animal rights!
The website does not have any specific Catholic teaching that I see. The first thing you see when you go to the site is them trying to SELL you some type of publication they put out.

Anyone can call themselves a Catholic group, or find something in the bible to support almost any issue.

I’m wondering if you have ever heard anything from the Church Fathers, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says we should not eat meat?? Can you find anything that says St Francis ate meat or not? I know the Franciscans eat meat. I would think they would not eat meat if St Francis didn’t.

 

[athansor]

I’ve seen the website. At the very bottom of the page it says "Catholic Concern for Animals - Providing Christian education, research, study, instruction, teaching, theology, forum and publications concerning animal rights, welfare, God… First thing listed is animal rights!
The website does not have any specific Catholic teaching that I see. The first thing you see when you go to the site is them trying to SELL you some type of publication they put out.

Anyone can call themselves a Catholic group, or find something in the bible to support almost any issue.

I’m wondering if you have ever heard anything from the Church Fathers, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says we should not eat meat?? Can you find anything that says St Francis ate meat or not? I know the Franciscans eat meat. I would think they would not eat meat if St Francis didn’t.

There’s this:

From the Catholic Catechism
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

The difference is in how one interprets needlessly. I don’t need any animal products to survive, or for that matter thrive. I’m in great shape, am competitive in sports, have lots of energy to play with my kids, and can stay warm in the coldest MT winter without consuming animal products. I can also cook and eat tasty meals and spend far less on my food. So, I have no need for animal products. For me to buy meat then would be causing animals to suffer needlessly as I have no need.
Someone else may believe that they have a need to eat meat or wear animal products. So, they would see this differently, I suppose.

 

[Marfran]

I’ve seen the website. At the very bottom of the page it says "Catholic Concern for Animals - Providing Christian education, research, study, instruction, teaching, theology, forum and publications concerning animal rights, welfare, God… First thing listed is animal rights!
The website does not have any specific Catholic teaching that I see. The first thing you see when you go to the site is them trying to SELL you some type of publication they put out.

Anyone can call themselves a Catholic group, or find something in the bible to support almost any issue.

I’m wondering if you have ever heard anything from the Church Fathers, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says we should not eat meat?? Can you find anything that says St Francis ate meat or not? I know the Franciscans eat meat. I would think they would not eat meat if St Francis didn’t.

And what are you interpreting “animal rights” to be? People seem to bristle at this term and I suspect it is because they do not undertstand it or misinterpret it. I am suggesting that if you are to have conversations here at CAF with Catholic animal people, vegans and/or vegetarians, that it woiuld be helpful to learn about their perspective, and you may be surprised once you review some Catholic writing on the matter.

There are animal welfarists, and then there are animal “rights” folks–and often the two overlap. My definition of animal rights is: Animals have the right to run if they have legs, fly if they have wings, and swim if they have fins.

***Catholic Concern for Animals ***is based in England. It has a chapter in the United States. mercifulJan, a CAF member, is in charge of the US chapter (I don’t know what her exact title is). You can reach her by PM here, or you can contact her through the web site. You can request a “free” copy of the publication that ***Catholic Concern for Animals puts out (4 times a year I think). With a $25.00 membership you will get all the publications for a year. There is also a lifetime membership available (I don’t remember the cost.) Bottom line: You can ***request a free publication.

A really good book that covers St. Francis is ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts amazon.com/Vegetarian-Christian-Saints-Holly-Roberts/dp/0975484400/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255640836&sr=8-1 It covers the lives of not only St. Francis, but 149 other saints. St. Francis was considered to be a vegetarian for at least part of his life. (Very few of us are born vegetarians because of the culture in which we live. It is a choice that we make.) And TODAY things are very different, even from the times in which St. Francis lived. We have all sorts of new cruelties and new agri-business practices that cause animals to suffer.

OK–now back to the flying fur!!!

 

[severus68]

Thank you, that was the point and were I was going to go with the response I got. Please show me writings of the early Church Fathers, or something in the Catechism that says that eating meat is wrong.

This argument about the Garden of Eden could also be used to say we should all be nudists.

If you feel that not eating meat has brought you closer to God and caused you to devote more of your time to things like the pro-life cause, GREAT! I’m all for it!! But you cannot give animals the same rights human beings, which is the next step in your line of reasoning.

Athansor was speaking about God’s plan, a poerfect world with no violence, no eating of flesh. Eden was vegn, to quoth. Please read Isaiah too on whatis to be.

There would be no problem going nude in His world, God made our bodies. Shame only came in wih sin, our sin. So did violence.

 

[4elise]

There’s this:

The difference is in how one interprets needlessly. I don’t need any animal products to survive, or for that matter thrive. I’m in great shape, am competitive in sports, have lots of energy to play with my kids, and can stay warm in the coldest MT winter without consuming animal products. I can also cook and eat tasty meals and spend far less on my food. So, I have no need for animal products. For me to buy meat then would be causing animals to suffer needlessly as I have no need.
Someone else may believe that they have a need to eat meat or wear animal products. So, they would see this differently, I suppose.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

. I have witnessed joy and fear in animals…

human emotions attached to animals, really?!

misguided statement at best, at worst, seek advice from a your priest.

 

[severus68]

human emotions attached to animals, really?!

misguided statement at best, at worst, seek advice from a your priest.

Actualy my parish priest, a Jesuit thinks the same. Perhaps you seek advice from your priest about the link humans have to animals and about making such comments. You don’t have to agree. Read more before making such high handed statements.

 

[Brendan]

Actualy my parish priest, a Jesuit thinks the same. Perhaps you seek advice from your priest about the link humans have to animals and about making such comments. You don’t have to agree. Read more before making such high handed statements.

Then your parish priest needs to study up some more on Aquinas. Emotions are an embodiment of the rational appetite. Animals, having only a sensitive soul, do not have the element of Reason necessary for emotion.

An animal may have a passion, a sensitive embodiment, but not an emotion. Aquinas deemed this an estimative power shaped by instinct, not the cognitive power shaped by intellect.