You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
No it’s not.An absolute defence to slander is the truth. This thread i about hnting for sport,just fr the thrill of the kill. I am not slandering anyone who huts out of neccesity.
Read the title again. I think you have your threads mixed up.
S
severus68
Guest
I think you are confused. Read the post I was responding to. You shoud always do that before you jump in.No it’s not.
Read the title again. I think you have your threads mixed up.
An absolute defence to slander is the truth. This thread i about hnting for sport,just fr the thrill of the kill. I am not slandering anyone who huts out of neccesity.
No it’s not.
Read the title again. I think you have your threads mixed up.
I encourage you to read the title of the thread…I think you are confused. Read the post I was responding to. You shoud always do that before you jump in.
“Re: Ethics of Fur”
M
Marfran
Guest
And as with all threads, we wander into related corollaries/issues/ and other considerations. I will re-post the OP. Maybe we can find our way back to it. We specifically raise captive animals for their fur and house and kill them inhumanely, for their fur exclusively. This is not for food. In the OP I also added the thought of the canned trophy hunt–as it too is not for food, and does not fulfill an authentic need, but rather a psychological one.
Is it ethical for modern, civilized man to raise and kill animals for their fur?
Something like 85% of the fur industry’s skins come from animals living captive in fur factory farms–is this ethical???
Any compelling reasons/moral imperatives to cease procuring animal fur, specifically by these methods?
Any additional thoughts on hunting animals for the sole purpose of trophies, e.g., canned hunts that are designed specifically for the hunter to bring home an exotic trophy skin?? (This may be a related corollary to the fur farming topic–as it is about killing animals for their skins/fur and not for “food.”)
P
PeterMuz
Guest
You tell me what you think the verse says. I just pointed it out.So, is your position that the Bible requires us to eat meat? Are we sinning if we are offered meat and don’t eat it?
Look, if you want to be a vegan, fine, I don’t have a problem with that. Just don’t use your faith or religion as the reason. Nothing in the Bible, the Catechism, nothing from the early Church fathers, or anything in Tradition tells us it is a sin to eat meat. You can find verses in the Bible that you can justify almost anything.
I am uncertain we “kill them inhumanely”And as with all threads, we wander into related corollaries/issues/ and other considerations. I will re-post the OP. Maybe we can find our way back to it. We specifically raise captive animals for their fur and house and kill them inhumanely, for their fur exclusively. This is not for food. In the OP I also added the thought of the canned trophy hunt–as it too is not for food, and does not fulfill an authentic need, but rather a psychological one.
I know we kill them for the fur. They were raised specifically for it.
And quite frankly I see nothing wrong with it. Assuming there is no suffering attached to it all.
P
PeterMuz
Guest
Two words… Michael VickFirst off, things like you are talking about happen in slaughterhouses all the time. It’s not illegal at all.
Well good for you, most of the people I know would say it is no where close to 50-50. For me its been about 98-2.In fact, it was my strong pro-life views that first got me to thinking about veganism to begin with. I think it would be hard to prove that most vegans are pro-abortion, in fact, my experience is that it’s about 50-50.
Fine, I don’t have a problem with you buying pet food. But you have seen what the Catechism says about spending money on pets. I only address this issue to point out hypocrisy. You cannot have it both ways. It is hypocritical to use your religion as a reason to be vegan, when nothing from that religion says that it is a sin to eat meatAs for the donations and pet owning, as long as the food I buy for my dog doesn’t cut into what I give the Church and other worthy causes, I don’t see how I personally are being hypocritical.
P
PeterMuz
Guest
Talk about cruelty to animals!!! “Selectively bred”? That is what Hitler was trying to do. Why don’t we just love these animals the way God created them. Did God not do a good enough job creating animals that we needed to go selectively breed our own?Actually, dogs and cats really weren’t created as wild animals at all, they were selectively bred from other animals to be household pets.
If you are going to stand by this statement as truth, please give some proof or evidence that there were no wild cats or dogs.
S
severus68
Guest
Dogs were the first animals to be domsticated by Man. It was the Cavemen ho had this unwritten contract. Th dogs would protect them and help in hunts and Man would feed them and shelter them. Those “dogs” are today very far from the wolves. I do not know about how ths came about with our cats. I don’t see how our cats and dogs can survive in the wild.Talk about cruelty to animals!!! “Selectively bred”? That is what Hitler was trying to do. Why don’t we just love these animals the way God created them. Did God not do a good enough job creating animals that we needed to go selectively breed our own?
If you are going to stand by this statement as truth, please give some proof or evidence that there were no wild cats or dogs.
If you take the stance that we should not have interfered with God’s creation, what about the horse, what about other abuses of animals?
M
Marfran
Guest
Very good post!!!Well Thomas is one Doctor of the Church. Some of his notions are medieval in character and may not apply to our current understanding of the world. Just because he is a Doctor does not make everything he said %100 correct.
BTW I do agree that animal certainly do not experience emotions as man does- primarily because they do not have the brain structures that elicit them.
I do believe that they experience fear and anger as these come from the Limbic system or the reptilian brain. The fact that they do not know they are an “it” would make any kind of human emotion doubtful.
Then again I don’t believe that very severely disabled people experience typical emotions.
THe biggest fallacy that some animal obsessed folks tout is that animals love- this sounds great but it really isn’t so.
But emotions stand outside of the issue of animal rights. Those rights do not flow from their similarity to man but by their nature of being part of creation.
M
Marfran
Guest
You see nothing wrong with killing an animal “inhumanely”. And you realize this is against Catholic teaching? The life of a captive “fur” animal is all about suffering. They are raised and killed inhumanely. Anal electrocution is outlawed in many areas because it ***is ***inhumane. Many European countries have completely outlawed “fur farming” in addition to just outlawing the “kill” method because the entire operation is inhumane.I am uncertain we “kill them inhumanely”
I know we kill them for the fur. They were raised specifically for it.
And quite frankly I see nothing wrong with it. Assuming there is no suffering attached to it all.
I know that is the claim.And you realize this is against Catholic teaching? The life of a captive “fur” animal is all about suffering. They are raised and killed inhumanely. Anal electrocution is outlawed in many areas because it ***is ***inhumane.
I however have yet to see convincing evidence of the suffering that is claimed to.
And without the suffering, I see nothing wrong here.
And I am well within the bounds set forth in the CCC.
A
athansor
Guest
I’m not sure I get the anger and the Hitler comparisons here. Do you not believe that dogs and cats were selectively bred? Or do you have a problem with the breeding of dogs and think that we should have just left the wolves alone all those years ago? Or perhaps that we should stop with the current trend of creating even more dog breeds?Talk about cruelty to animals!!! “Selectively bred”? That is what Hitler was trying to do. Why don’t we just love these animals the way God created them. Did God not do a good enough job creating animals that we needed to go selectively breed our own?
If you are going to stand by this statement as truth, please give some proof or evidence that there were no wild cats or dogs.
Here’s a bit on the origins of the domestic dog.
from:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dogThe origin of the domestic dog began with the domestication of the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) from the gray wolf (Canis lupus) several tens of thousands of years ago. Domesticated dogs provided early humans with a guard animal, a source of food and fur, and a beast of burden. The process continues to this day, as the intentional cross-breeding of dogs continues, to create the so called “designer dogs”.
I know that a wiki article may not constitute proof, but the article references other studies that would count as proof.
Just a question here.…perhaps that we should stop with the current trend of creating even more dog breeds?
Does anyone have a problem with selective breeding of animals to bring out desirable traits?
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
if that meal goes to waste then yes just as guilty of sin as a factory farmer. Same degree of sin. Is your position on not eating meat worth the chance of not obtaining eternal life?So, is your position that the Bible requires us to eat meat? Are we sinning if we are offered meat and don’t eat it?
P
PeterMuz
Guest
I don’t have a problem with it. I’m pointing out hypocrisy. What I don’t understand is why you animal rights folks don’t have a problem with it. If you care about these animals, let them live the way GOD created them to live.Dogs were the first animals to be domsticated by Man. It was the Cavemen ho had this unwritten contract. Th dogs would protect them and help in hunts and Man would feed them and shelter them. Those “dogs” are today very far from the wolves. I do not know about how ths came about with our cats. I don’t see how our cats and dogs can survive in the wild.
If you take the stance that we should not have interfered with God’s creation, what about the horse, what about other abuses of animals?
P
PeterMuz
Guest
I have not taken a stance on this issue. I personally think it is fine. I find it somewhat hypocritical that you and other animal rights people are fine with it.I’m not sure I get the anger and the Hitler comparisons here. Do you not believe that dogs and cats were selectively bred? Or do you have a problem with the breeding of dogs and think that we should have just left the wolves alone all those years ago? Or perhaps that we should stop with the current trend of creating even more dog breeds?
Here’s a bit on the origins of the domestic dog.
from:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
I know that a wiki article may not constitute proof, but the article references other studies that would count as proof.
Don’t you want people to not interfere with how these animals were created? Don’t you think it is somewhat selfish and cruel that we started selectively breeding these animals for our personal gratification or whatever?
I’m just trying to understand you folks. Unfortunately I feel like I’m trying to nail jell-o to the wall.
M
Marfran
Guest
Well, I for one do not agree with the creation of all these breeds of dogs, cats, racing pigeons, etc. I question whether we need to tinker with God’s design. Do we really need Pug dogs, minature poodles, cockadoodles (I don’t know what the latest breed of man-created dog breed is)…I have not taken a stance on this issue. I personally think it is fine. I find it somewhat hypocritical that you and other animal rights people are fine with it.
Don’t you want people to not interfere with how these animals were created? Don’t you think it is somewhat selfish and cruel that we started selectively breeding these animals for our personal gratification or whatever?
I’m just trying to understand you folks. Unfortunately I feel like I’m trying to nail jell-o to the wall.
A
athansor
Guest
You know, a couple of times in this thread, and in the others like it currently on the board, I’ve stated my reasons for being vegan. I’ve also never stated that it’s sinful or somehow contrary to Church teaching for people to eat meat. I’ve even been compelled to state my views on life issues to answer the criticism that all vegans are pro-abortion. If there’s more that I can do to help someone understand where I’m coming from, I’d be glad to do it.I find it somewhat hypocritical that you and other animal rights people are fine with it. Don’t you want people to not interfere with how these animals were created? Don’t you think it is somewhat selfish and cruel that we started selectively breeding these animals for our personal gratification or whatever?
I’m just trying to understand you folks. Unfortunately I feel like I’m trying to nail jell-o to the wall.
Yet, I keep getting followed around with labels of hypocrisy and generalizations that some people have about vegans. It’s funny, I think perhaps a lot of meat eaters are feeling judged by the vegans on threads like this. Maybe that’s because we’re online instead of interacting in real life. Vegans are pretty few and far between (I wonder how many vegans most of you know in real life, and how you interact with them). If I meet someone for the first time, the fact that they likely eat meat doesn’t affect at all how I view them. 99% of the people I know are omnivores, even though I hang out at vegetarian friendly restaurants and stores. If you meet someone for the first time, and they are, say, wearing a t-shirt that says vegan, or you have some other way to tell that they don’t eat meat, does that affect how you view them?
Peter Muz:
You probably know a lot more vegans than I do. I got my data from polls online at secular vegetarian sites plus the few vegans I know in real life. For you to get statistics like that, how many vegans did you talk to?Well good for you, most of the people I know would say it is no where close to 50-50. For me its been about 98-2.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.