Ethics of Fur

[severus68]

You do not have the knowledge necessary to make that assessment.
You actually have no idea what the needs or wants of the others here are.

Perhaps that is the crux of the matter. There are a number of judgements going on concerning needs that are completely without basis in reality.
There has been plenty of agreement concerning the needless suffering being wrong, and indeed the CCC as well backs this up.

But it appears that people are not content with what the CCC says, and wish to define for others what exactly my needs and wants are.
That is not your right, it is mine.
It is not the place of anyone else to tell me what I need. That is an authority left to God and his Church.

I hear many vegans speak indignantly that they ‘are not judging other’ yet they fail to see that is precisely what they are doing. As soon as they try to tell others they do not ‘need’ something, they are guilty of telling others what to do.
As soon as they utilize the CCC to justify their own personal choices, they by default place the actions of others that do not act as they do outside of the CCC.
And YES, that is in fact telling others that they are sinning, that is in fact a judgement upon others. And yes, that causes arguments.

That is not correct.

Anyone can make an assessment based on facts and circumstnces. Thi is not directed at you personally.Anyway what do you really know of JaneGrey’s knowledge.

All of us make choices according to our consciences, teachings of our respective religions, our principles and values. As Catholics we can make our individual decisions on how we live our lives as long as we do not contravene God’s laws and the teachings of the Church It is not a sin if we choose not to eat meat, not to hunt for sport, not to use fur. We can disagree with you, you can disagree with us. We are sinners, you are sinners.

 

[just_me_1]

You do not have the knowledge necessary to make that assessment.
You actually have no idea what the needs or wants of the others here are.

Perhaps that is the crux of the matter. There are a number of judgements going on concerning needs that are completely without basis in reality.
There has been plenty of agreement concerning the needless suffering being wrong, and indeed the CCC as well backs this up.

But it appears that people are not content with what the CCC says, and wish to define for others what exactly my needs and wants are.
That is not your right, it is mine.
It is not the place of anyone else to tell me what I need. That is an authority left to God and his Church.

I hear many vegans speak indignantly that they ‘are not judging other’ yet they fail to see that is precisely what they are doing. As soon as they try to tell others they do not ‘need’ something, they are guilty of telling others what to do.
As soon as they utilize the CCC to justify their own personal choices, they by default place the actions of others that do not act as they do outside of the CCC.
And YES, that is in fact telling others that they are sinning, that is in fact a judgement upon others. And yes, that causes arguments.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I dont get why people get so emotional about their precious fur coats. You dont need them, it doesnt matter if you want them, our wants are meaningless. All sentient beings have the right to not suffer needlessly. Few people need fur, therefore fur farming is needless suffering. That is all there is to it.
This is not about judging people who eat meat or dont personally care for animals etc. Fur is vile. It smells. Even if one has no compassion for animals, at leat pity your fellow humans and not burden them with that-or at least dont offend the majority of people in society who (at least openly) find it replusive.

Who has given the rights to all sentient beings to not suffer? And who decides what is sentient? Are clams sentient? How about a crab or lobster? Or snails? Don’t lions kill an occasional giraffe? If Mr. Lion doesn’t kill the giraffe to eat, wouldn’t he be hungry and suffer, as would his little cubs and pride of lionesses? Did you ever see lions hunt? They are pretty brutal.

Yes it matters if I want a fur or not. If I buy a fur, if I wear the mink lined gloves that I already have , Is it a sin? And a sin against what commandment?

 

[just_me_1]

I dont get why people get so emotional about their precious fur coats. You dont need them, it doesnt matter if you want them, our wants are meaningless. All sentient beings have the right to not suffer needlessly. Few people need fur, therefore fur farming is needless suffering. That is all there is to it.
This is not about judging people who eat meat or dont personally care for animals etc. Fur is vile. It smells. Even if one has no compassion for animals, at leat pity your fellow humans and not burden them with that-or at least dont offend the majority of people in society who (at least openly) find it replusive.

where does everyone get the SUFFERING of these animals? if they weren’t bred for fur they would never exist. their entire life they are fed well, sheltered, medicated, and cared for better than any wild animal. then, when their time comes, they are used for their intended purpose. if they were starved, beaten, or deprived basic care, the fur wouldn’t be worth a darn and the farmer would be out of business! good grief people!

do you all know how most pigs and chickens on family farms are killed? geez I’d rather die like a mink than get stuck and bled-out or beheaded! I think the animals raised for fur have got it good! or if they were wild, do you think they’d get a vet to come find them in the woods when they were gravely sick or injured and give them a euthanasia shot and cuddle them till they were gone? come on.

so to make it perfectly clear it is not cruel and there is no more suffering than any other animal!!! everything dies one way or another!

 

[severus68]

This is a good example of why this discussion or debate is so frustrating to me. You use the Bible to say we are made in the image and likeness of God, but you reject the part of the Bible that says “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.” Genesis 1:28 Jesus ate meat. He cooked fish for the apostles and ate some in front of them. You cannot take the parts of the Bible you like and quote them, and then discard the parts you don’t like–that makes you a Protestant.

Others have done the same thing with the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states, “It is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing.” Yes, further on, it says “It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.” But in order to utilize animals for food and clothing, sometimes animals have to die. The Catechism does not say that it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing only if you don’t kill them. So, again, you cannot take the parts you like out of the catechism and discard the parts you don’t like.

You would reflect poorlyly on Catholics by putting down fellow Christians.

We are supposed to be good stewards of God’s creation and will have to answer to God one day.

This thread is about the ethics of fur. Anyway, there is nohing in the Bible that says we sin if we refuse to eat meat or wear fur.

We can make individual decisions not to eat meat, use fur and believe we are good stewards of God’s creation by doing so particularly today.

Everyone chooses passages that supports his/her view.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

That is not correct.

Anyone can make an assessment based on facts and circumstnces. Thi is not directed at you personally.Anyway what do you really know of JaneGrey’s knowledge.

All of us make choices according to our consciences, teachings of our respective religions, our principles and values. As Catholics we can make our individual decisions on how we live our lives as long as we do not contravene God’s laws and the teachings of the Church It is not a sin if we choose not to eat meat, not to hunt for sport, not to use fur. We can disagree with you, you can disagree with us. We are sinners, you are sinners.

Agreed.
But … if I do eat meat, do hunt for sport, and do wear fur, am I sinning?

 

[just_me_1]

If I buy a fur, if I wear the mink lined gloves that I already have , Is it a sin? And a sin against what commandment?

that would be #11. “thou shall not wear farm raised fur.”

followed of course by #12. “thou shall not hunt unless starving and thee animal art not endangered and thou art not violating any laws and thou doesn’t useth (or own-eth) a gun.”

they are in the appendix after the commandments. unfortunately the last slab would have been too heavy.

 

[vz71]

Agreed.
But … if I do eat meat, do hunt for sport, and do wear fur, am I sinning?

If we are to adopt the more restrictive interpretation of the CCC as some do to justify their choice, then yes.

The problem is that once the restriction is drawn, it must be drawn for all. Else we fall into moral relativism.
So the concept of the vegan claiming it is because of the CCC is truly a judgement upon all who are not living to that particular standard.

It is a far better thing, and one I could respect a lot more, to leave the CCC out of it and call it what it is. A lifestyle choice.

 

[Marfran]

And who decides what is sentient?

Basic science.

Don’t lions kill an occasional giraffe? If Mr. Lion doesn’t kill the giraffe to eat, wouldn’t he be hungry and suffer, as would his little cubs and pride of lionesses? Did you ever see lions hunt? They are pretty brutal.

Lions are not made in the image of God, we are. We should not strive to emulate lions. Jesus is the* Lamb of God*, not the Lion of God.

Yes it matters if I want a fur or not. If I buy a fur, if I wear the mink lined gloves that I already have , Is it a sin? And a sin against what commandment?

Mary, the point is that animals needlessly suffer for our vanities. In our modern age we have many alternatives to fur. IMHO, you can keep the gloves. But think twice before buying a NEW fur garment. A NEW garment fuels the industry and ensures its continuation. I know some people won’t agree with me on this–but if you like real fur–you can buy secondhand, or from a resale shop. No more animals will suffer and die from your purchase, and recycling is a responsible thing to do. We already have a lot of furs and leathers, animal pelts, already on our planet. Recycling makes sense, especially in this day and age.

 

[Marfran]

if they weren’t bred for fur they would never exist…

Exactly!!! Right on the mark. We breed them, bring them into existence, make them live in tiny cages, all for what???

 

[severus68]

Agreed.
But … if I do eat meat, do hunt for sport, and do wear fur, am I sinning?

I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

 

[just_me_1]

Exactly!!! Right on the mark. We breed them, bring them into existence, make them live in tiny cages, all for what???

their fur. to sell and wear. use the profits to feed and clothe our family and those less fortunate. sounds pretty honest and charitable to me.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Lions are not made in the image of God, we are. We should not strive to emulate lions. Jesus is the* Lamb of God*, not the Lion of God.

.

The lion is considered to be the “King” of all beasts, no doubt due to its great muscular power and agility,its strength and ability to dominate all other species. In its natural habitat it is indeed a magnificent creature. Many great monarchs and Kings have taken the Lion as a title.

•Al Hadira A.D.62 was called The Lion of God, because of his religious zeal and courage.
•Arioch BC 1927 The Lion, King of Assyria.
•Henry, Duke of Bavaria was called, “The Lion”, because of his daring and bravery.
•Richard I Coeur de Lion (Lion’s heart) so called for his bravery,
•… and many, many others.

But the greatest to ever bear this name, is Our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus was a descendant of the principal tribe of Israel, the tribe of Judah.
Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. The word Judah means, praise. He is the one to whom all praise and honor are due, He is the Lion enthroned upon the praises of Israel. Jesus is the ruler, the King to whom rightly belongs the blessing of Jacob.

boston-catholic-journal.com/a-primer-to-catholic-symbolism.htm#The_Lion_

 

[just_me_1]

. We already have a lot of furs and leathers, animal pelts, already on our planet. Recycling makes sense, especially in this day and age.

not to burst your bubble but leather generally comes from deer, pigs, sheep, goats, and of course, cattle… all of which are used primarily for meat.

and pelts sold generally come from hunted animals that are in someone’s freezer. (rabbits, deer, elk, game birds)

and yes, I left out the pelts from all the coons, wolves, and coyotes, etc. that people GENERALLY don’t eat… those pests do nothing but destroy farmers crops and livestock.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

that would be #11. “thou shall not wear farm raised fur.”

followed of course by #12. “thou shall not hunt unless starving and thee animal art not endangered and thou art not violating any laws and thou doesn’t useth (or own-eth) a gun.”

they are in the appendix after the commandments. unfortunately the last slab would have been too heavy.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

Sure only God judges…but he did give us the Church to tell us if something is objectively evil or not. So again would the use of fur, meat, leather etc be a sin? And which commandment?

 

[severus68]

Sure only God judges…but he did give us the Church to tell us if something is objectively evil or not. So again would the use of fur, meat, leather etc be a sin? And which commandment?

Really, so God is ot objective so he needs the Church run by non perfect humans t be objective?

We can go on like this. As I said , I cannot judge anyone. Since you are sure what you believe is right and correct, haven’t you answered your own question?

 

[vz71]

I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

Really, so God is ot objective so he needs the Church run by non perfect humans t be objective?

We can go on like this. As I said , I cannot judge anyone. Since you are sure what you believe is right and correct, haven’t you answered your own question?

moral relativism.

 

[mmsiciliana]

I think that the operative word here is CAGE. How natural is a cage???

Fur is beautiful–on the living animal it grows on. Humans adorning themselves with dead animals as a fashion statement, or as testament to their “wealth” is something entirely of a different color.

It takes 1 acre of land in the wild to sustain one mink. They cannot be put into a pen because they are solitary animals and they will attack each other. Therefore, they are put into cages for their own protection. Is it natural for a dog or a cat to live in a house? No, but you want your pet, so you will make an exception for that. Fur coats are beautiful. They are soft, they are warm, and people want them. You keep saying people wear them as a fashion statement or as a testament to their wealth. Since you are fond of using analogies, let me use one. What about diamonds? Do you have a diamond engagement ring? What did the miner have to go through to get that stone? Why do you “adorn” yourself with a rock which is merely an artificially inflated status symbol?
BTW, speaking of “different color”, did you know mink come in several different colors?

 

[mmsiciliana]

You would reflect poorlyly on Catholics by putting down fellow Christians.

We are supposed to be good stewards of God’s creation and will have to answer to God one day.

This thread is about the ethics of fur. Anyway, there is nohing in the Bible that says we sin if we refuse to eat meat or wear fur.

We can make individual decisions not to eat meat, use fur and believe we are good stewards of God’s creation by doing so particularly today.

Everyone chooses passages that supports his/her view.

A “cafeteria Catholic”–one who picks and chooses what teachings of the Church we will believe and which he won’t is not a Catholic–he is a Protestant, by definition of the word. A Protestant is one who protests some teaching of the Catholic Church. It’s not a put-down.

And anyway there is nothing in the Bible that says we sin if we choose to eat meat or wear fur. And, there is nothing in the Catechism that says we sin if we choose to eat meat or wear fur. Therefore, eating meat and wearing fur are moral choices that can be made. Therefore, it follows logically that eating meat and wearing fur is ethical. To prove your contention that it is unethical to eat meat or wear fur, you would have to show me where it says in the Bible and/or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that either is prohibited by God or the teachings of the Catholic Church. You and the others have been unable to do so, so the question is answered in the affirmative.