Ethics of Fur

[mmsiciliana]

Mary, the point is that animals needlessly suffer for our vanities. In our modern age we have many alternatives to fur.

The alternatives do not have the same characteristics as real fur. The alternatives are not as beautiful, not as warm, not as soft, not as durable. As an analogy, look at shoes. I will not buy plastic shoes. Why? Because they don’t hold up like leather shoes. It’s the same with a fur. I could choose a cheaper coat, but it wouldn’t hold up as well, it wouldn’t last as long, it wouldn’t look as good, it wouldn’t be as soft, and it certainly wouldn’t keep me as warm. You keep saying people buy furs because of “vanity”, but there are other reasons to wear real fur. The fact that it looks good is just one attribute that fur has.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
Really, so God is ot objective so he needs the Church run by non perfect humans t be objective?

We can go on like this. As I said , I cannot judge anyone. Since you are sure what you believe is right and correct, haven’t you answered your own question?

moral relativism.

Exactly. As Bishop Fulton Sheen said, “The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.”

People may choose not to wear fur or to eat meat, but they cannot use the Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church as justification for doing so. There is only one truth. Either it’s morally right for everyone to eat meat and wear fur, or it’s morally wrong for everyone to eat meat and wear fur. It cannot be both at one and the same time.

 

[Indyann]

Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
Really, so God is ot objective so he needs the Church run by non perfect humans t be objective?

We can go on like this. As I said , I cannot judge anyone. Since you are sure what you believe is right and correct, haven’t you answered your own question?

Exactly. As Bishop Fulton Sheen said, “The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.”

People may choose not to wear fur or to eat meat, but they cannot use the Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church as justification for doing so. There is only one truth. Either it’s morally right for everyone to eat meat and wear fur, or it’s morally wrong for everyone to eat meat and wear fur. It cannot be both at one and the same time.

It took 578 posts to get to that simple TRUTH. Thank you!

 

[Marfran]

Is it natural for a dog or a cat to live in a house?

You are comparing a tiny cage to a house??? How does a house restrict the use of one’s legs and the ability to move about freely???

What about diamonds? Do you have a diamond engagement ring? What did the miner have to go through to get that stone? Why do you “adorn” yourself with a rock which is merely an artificially inflated status symbol?

How many diamonds do I own??? NOT A ONE!!! And yes, I am married. In fact, I do not own any artificially inflated ROCKS. I am SO NOT INTO the jewelry thing either. Especially diamonds from Africa, blood diamonds. Now there’s another thread…

 

[Marfran]

The alternatives do not have the same characteristics as real fur. The alternatives are not as beautiful, not as warm, not as soft, not as durable.

The alternative are MORE BEAUTIFUL. They shine with compassion!!!

As an analogy, look at shoes. I will not buy plastic shoes. Why? Because they don’t hold up like leather shoes. It’s the same with a fur. I could choose a cheaper coat, but it wouldn’t hold up as well, it wouldn’t last as long, it wouldn’t look as good, it wouldn’t be as soft, and it certainly wouldn’t keep me as warm. You keep saying people buy furs because of “vanity”, but there are other reasons to wear real fur. The fact that it looks good is just one attribute that fur has.

“it wouldn’t look as good…” In who’s eyes??? In God’s eyes??? Is this a fashion statement?

Doesn’t sound like you have much COMPASSION in your wardrobe.

BTW: Many people can not afford to wear mink coats.

 

[TOP]

Who actually wears furs anymore? I don’t think I have ever seen anyone wear one, except people in the Artic. Seems this thread tugs at the popular view and derails to other animal rights. I can start a thread that says, Do people have rights?, and sway the op to include anything I want to, but when someone argues a point, just say, stay on the topic. Not so slick.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Originally Posted by mmsiciliana
Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
I make my choices, it is for you to make yours. God knows all, including motivations and only God judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by severus68
Really, so God is ot objective so he needs the Church run by non perfect humans t be objective?

We can go on like this. As I said , I cannot judge anyone. Since you are sure what you believe is right and correct, haven’t you answered your own question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vz71
moral relativism.

Exactly. As Bishop Fulton Sheen said, “The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.”

People may choose not to wear fur or to eat meat, but they cannot use the Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church as justification for doing so. There is only one truth. Either it’s morally right for everyone to eat meat and wear fur, or it’s morally wrong for everyone to eat meat and wear fur. **It cannot be both at one and the same time. **

It took 578 posts to get to that simple TRUTH. Thank you!

 

[just_me_1]

Especially diamonds from Africa, blood diamonds. Now there’s another thread…

what are blood diamonds?

 

[4elise]

If we are to adopt the more restrictive interpretation of the CCC as some do to justify their choice, then yes.

The problem is that once the restriction is drawn, it must be drawn for all. Else we fall into moral relativism.
So the concept of the vegan claiming it is because of the CCC is truly a judgement upon all who are not living to that particular standard.

It is a far better thing, and one I could respect a lot more, to leave the CCC out of it and call it what it is. A lifestyle choice.

I am guessing vz71 that this is addressed at me since I’m the vegan that recently quoted the CCC —

So, let me try to clarify this - because while you may hear judgement from me - I am not offering it

I am trying to say (though apparently poorly) that the section of the CCC that references needless suffering and death of animals - since I do not need meat, eggs, dairy, poultry, fish, leather or fur - I am confirmed in my choice to abstain from it given this text.

I am confirmed in this choice in other parts of the CCC regarding resources and our role in the world regarding the environment because of the impact of factory farming. I am further confirmed in this choice given comments by the Holy Father about animals being treated as commodities.

I completely understand that for many raising animals for food or fur is part of their life - how they provide for their family. How can I judge them? I am not in their circumstance.

The beatitudes are the Gospel reading for Sunday and I was reflecting this in light of this topic and the other ones here - I do believe it is right to speak out when I believe something is wrong and I believe that I am supposed to do this - but I am also supposed to be a peacemaker and I certainly do not want to cause anyone to be upset or feel judged, so I guess we just keep trying to find balance here in challenging discussions.

Blessings,

 

[4elise]

what are blood diamonds?

history.com/content/blooddiamonds

Read a bit about Sierra Leone too… I have friends who served as missionaries there and witnessed people loosing their hand / arm over diamonds.

 

[Marfran]

Who actually wears furs anymore? I don’t think I have ever seen anyone wear one, except people in the Artic. Seems this thread tugs at the popular view and derails to other animal rights. I can start a thread that says, Do people have rights?, and sway the op to include anything I want to, but when someone argues a point, just say, stay on the topic. Not so slick.

That’s what I say. Who wears fur anymore these days? Do they even wear it in the Arctic??? There are much warmer materials for the Arctic. Dude, have you been reading this thread??? We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!! MINK is so passe. So are diamonds. (Don’t worry–if you already have one you can keep it–I don’t have one–don’t plan to get any–don’t want any blood on my hands.)

Yes, the topic is factory farm fur!!! Cruel, unneccessary, a passe fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…

So TOP, if you are tired of the animal threads, should we start one on BLOOD DIAMONDS???

 

[4elise]

That’s what I say. Who wears fur anymore these days? Do they even wear it in the Arctic??? There are much warmer materials for the Arctic. Dude, have you been reading this thread??? We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!! MINK is so passe. So are diamonds. (Don’t worry–if you already have one you can keep it–I don’t have one–don’t plan to get any–don’t want any blood on my hands.)

Yes, the topic is factory farm fur!!! Cruel, unneccessary, a passe fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…

So TOP, if you are tired of the animal threads, should we start one on BLOOD DIAMONDS???

I asked, but don’t believe I got an answer from anyone - is there ***any other use ***for fur that can not be replaced with some non fur synthetic item that would be cheaper and would not involve killing animals?

 

[mmsiciliana]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmsiciliana
Is it natural for a dog or a cat to live in a house?

Marfran said: You are comparing a tiny cage to a house??? How does a house restrict the use of one’s legs and the ability to move about freely???

Whether it’s inside a house, or inside a cage, the creature’s movements are artificially limited. Would you like to be imprisoned in your house for the rest of your life? And, if your pet is a cat, it never gets to go outside and touch the grass. If it’s a dog and you work outside the home, it gets to sit home by itself all day, waiting for you to come home and take it out so it can go to the bathroom, and that’s “natural”? As I said before, you want a pet, so you don’t care that the life you are “providing” for it is unnatural.

 

[mmsiciliana]

That’s what I say. Who wears fur anymore these days? Do they even wear it in the Arctic??? There are much warmer materials for the Arctic. Dude, have you been reading this thread??? We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!! MINK is so passe.
Yes, the topic is factory farm fur!!! Cruel, unneccessary, a passe fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…

So TOP, if you are tired of the animal threads, should we start one on BLOOD DIAMONDS???

Who wears fur anymore these days? Millions of people. They’re still buying it and they’re still wearing it, and that’s what really irritates you, isn’t it? Prove your statement that “[t]here are much warmer materials for the Arctic.” You also state, “We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!!” I’m not a factory farm mink rancher, so you have lied again. In short, you haven’t proven your case that fur farming is cruel, so, again, you are practicing calumny, which is a very serious sin, much unlike the wearing or use of fur. You also keep saying fur is a “fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…” Sounds a lot like you have an envy issue going on as well. Have you considered that your statements might be evidence of sinning against the 10th Commandment?

 

[severus68]

A “cafeteria Catholic”–one who picks and chooses what teachings of the Church we will believe and which he won’t is not a Catholic–he is a Protestant, by definition of the word. A Protestant is one who protests some teaching of the Catholic Church. It’s not a put-down.

And anyway there is nothing in the Bible that says we sin if we choose to eat meat or wear fur. And, there is nothing in the Catechism that says we sin if we choose to eat meat or wear fur. Therefore, eating meat and wearing fur are moral choices that can be made. Therefore, it follows logically that eating meat and wearing fur is ethical. To prove your contention that it is unethical to eat meat or wear fur, you would have to show me where it says in the Bible and/or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that either is prohibited by God or the teachings of the Catholic Church. You and the others have been unable to do so, so the question is answered in the affirmative.

You really do not have to get defensive and then try to insult me or anyone else. No one here made a persona attack on your parents or their choce of business. I have read quite lot of the Reformation, thank you. You have contradicted yourself. You meant it as an insult. When some born again Christians have criticised Catholics, I have suggested politely that they should develop their own spirituality. This is a forum for discussion, not for making personal attacks.

I have made my own conclusions as to how I shall lead my life. You do not have to agree with me. You can go on saying how we have not shown the moral/Christian/Catholic basis for our convictions. We have over and over. The fact is we do live such lifestyles because we have found the bases o d so.

 

[severus68]

It took 578 posts to get to that simple TRUTH. Thank you!

As you see it.

 

[4elise]

Who wears fur anymore these days? Millions of people. They’re still buying it and they’re still wearing it, and that’s what really irritates you, isn’t it? Prove your statement that “[t]here are much warmer materials for the Arctic.” You also state, “We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!!” I’m not a factory farm mink rancher, so you have lied again. In short, you haven’t proven your case that fur farming is cruel, so, again, you are practicing calumny, which is a very serious sin, much unlike the wearing or use of fur. You also keep saying fur is a “fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…” Sounds a lot like you have an envy issue going on as well. Have you considered that your statements might be evidence of sinning against the 10th Commandment?

mmsiciliana - I think your closeness to this topic would make you very sensitive to anyone suggesting the possibility that people do chose other items to ‘keep warm’ and that is certainly understandable. I think becoming defensive is also natural, but calling someone a liar doesn’t advance this discussion at all -

I agree with Marfran - to me the only use of fur would be as a fashion statement, one that cost much, much more than the synthetic options - so yes, IMHO it is a symbol of wealth and materialism - as are cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think pointing this out does not make one guilty of envy, but possibly sensitive to the use of resources.

It is difficult to have these discussions when someone in what they do for a living feels challenged - of course - I hope we can take a step back and offer each other respect, and try to listen (or read) with open minds and hearts.

I have been on threads with Marfran and with ranchers and seen them communicate respectfully so I know that we can do this - we can come to different conclusions - we can argue, and disagree without becoming disagreeable. :yyeess:

 

[Indyann]

As you see it.

Nope, as the Church sees it. If you insist on arguing with the Church, knock yourself out.

 

[bigfootbob]

I asked, but don’t believe I got an answer from anyone - is there ***any other use ***for fur that can not be replaced with some non fur synthetic item that would be cheaper and would not involve killing animals?

Sure there are other materials, but they are aren’t as good. For example, will not buy boots or a belt or gloves that are not made of leather. They just do not hold up as well. I will pay over $100 for a pair of leather boots instead of $20 for a pair of synthetic ones. I had a rabbit skin hat and that was the warmest hat I have ever had. If there are better synthetic things and they are cheaper I will buy them.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Originally Posted by mmsiciliana
Who wears fur anymore these days? Millions of people. They’re still buying it and they’re still wearing it, and that’s what really irritates you, isn’t it? Prove your statement that “[t]here are much warmer materials for the Arctic.” You also state, “We have a factory farm mink rancher here trying to convince us to wear mink!!!” I’m not a factory farm mink rancher, so you have lied again. In short, you haven’t proven your case that fur farming is cruel, so, again, you are practicing calumny, which is a very serious sin, much unlike the wearing or use of fur. You also keep saying fur is a “fashion statement, a symbol of wealth…materialism…” Sounds a lot like you have an envy issue going on as well. Have you considered that your statements might be evidence of sinning against the 10th Commandment?

mmsiciliana - I think your closeness to this topic would make you very sensitive to anyone suggesting the possibility that people do chose other items to ‘keep warm’ and that is certainly understandable. I think becoming defensive is also natural, but calling someone a liar doesn’t advance this discussion at all -

4elise, I have not problem having a discussion with you. But I do have a problem having a discussion with someone who lies. Marfran’s statement that I am a factory fur farmer is a lie. In fact, I’ve never been a fur farmer; I merely grew up on a fur farm, so I know what happens on one. I have stated over and over again that ranch raised mink are not killed by electrocution, which was another statement Marfran kept repeating over and over, and, since it is untrue, that statement is also a lie. In short, Marfran has no credibility with anyone who knows the truth. As you have noticed, I have not accused you or anyone else of lying, because you haven’t. But Marfran has continued to repeat untruths even after she’s been called on them.