Ethics of Fur

[Marfran]

After you posted the story about the blueberries, I googled blueberry farm child labor.

Here is the story that I referred to. The name of the farm is Adkin. gsmlaborcouncil.org/node/4250

What I found is that it seems the use of child labor on blueberry farms is pretty much endemic to the industry.

But you were not aware of this until I brought it to your attention?

So, are you going to stop eating blueberries?

Yes, absolutely. That is the ethical thing to do. Now that I am aware of the situation, I either become part of the solution, or part of the problem. I can purchase blueberries if they are not from this farm, and I am relatively sure this is not an issue with the grower of the blueberries that I purchase. I can purchase blueberries from small local organic growers, if there are any in my city. And I can also consider growng my own, or just doing without, until there is a resolution to this situation. If you read the article you will note that workers, including the young children, are exposed to hazardous levels of pesticides. I will not be a part of a situation where children are exposed to dangerous chemicals. Period. Even if it means that I can not enjoy blueberries, and have to learn to make an alternative to my blueberry cobbler.

What about anything from China? Do you boycott all items from China because of the way the adults and the children are exploited there?

Absolutely. I guess you missed the Walmart thread. And even Walmart has taken responsibility–and refuses to carry these blueberries.

The only way you can be sure that anything you eat or wear was produced “ethically” is to produce it yourself.

And a lot of people ***are ***choosing to grow their own veggies and fruits. And if you read any of Michael Pollan’s work he advocates not buying any factory farmed meat/milk/or eggs and hunting your own meat or buying organic, raising your own eggs etc. Many urban areas are now allowing “urban” chickens. (And by the way, I’m not a fan of Michael Pollan–but he does raise some good points about us knowing how our food is produced and voting with our grocery dollars.)

 

[Marfran]

exactly! I’m giggling my butt off here trying to picture farmers, ranchers, cowboys, construction workers, welders, etc. in littly shiny vinyl boots…or little cotton gloves…

Well then, you have something to learn about alternatives to leather work boots!!! I have a pretty dirty job and need some well made boots. 4elise posted a link to non-leather work boots. If it’s something that you want to learn about, the information is out there, and the companies making these products exist. Information is power!

 

[Marfran]

I gather Marfran’s point is about knowledge and awareness. Anyway, I don’t think anyone is being personal here and directing barbs at anyone personally by giving views.

Absolutely.
The more you know, the better decisions you can make.

 

[just_me_1]

Well then, you have something to learn about alternatives to leather work boots!!! I have a pretty dirty job and need some well made boots. 4elise posted a link to non-leather work boots. If it’s something that you want to learn about, the information is out there, and the companies making these products exist. Information is power!

ok… I was a professional horse trainer (western performance horses) for years. now just I farm and work with cattle but I still train and sell my own horses. if I showed up in sythetic boots I would have been laughed out of the show ring and been looking for work! furthermore my LEATHER saddles and bridles are my partners and I depend on them for many reasons that go far beyond looks. I have many pairs of leather boots and gloves and belts and chaps. and when they eventually do wear out, I will buy more and not feel guilty. every professional horseman and cattleman and farmer I know feels the same way about the durability, safety, and superiority of real leather. is it because we want to make cattle “suffer?”

besides, what were Jesus’s sandals made from?

 

[just_me_1]

Not to appear contrary - but there are other choices than ‘little shiny vinyl boots’ that are not made from animals, including the steel toed variety:

Just a quick search came up with:
thevegetariansite.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=S&Category_Code=safety

yeah and then next week you get to buy a new pair and then another pair the week after that… no thanks. for that kind of money I’ll buy a nice pair that’ll last.

 

[4elise]

yeah and then next week you get to buy a new pair and then another pair the week after that… no thanks. for that kind of money I’ll buy a nice pair that’ll last.

Of course you could be right - but then again the synthetic may actually last longer - perhaps we need a side by side test to find out which out lasts the other…

Apparently there is even a market for synthetic saddles, etc… cowboyway.com/What/SyntheticSaddles.htm - and apparently some even think it is a better choice than leather horsesaddleshop.com/leather-vrs-synthetic.html

 

[just_me_1]

Of course you could be right - but then again the synthetic may actually last longer - perhaps we need a side by side test to find out which out lasts the other…

Apparently there is even a market for synthetic saddles, etc… cowboyway.com/What/SyntheticSaddles.htm - and apparently some even think it is a better choice than leather horsesaddleshop.com/leather-vrs-synthetic.html

k, we’ll each buy a pair and I’ll mail you my left boot, you mail me yours!

as far as those saddles, they are a joke. I’ve tried to ride in them. they are certified junk.

 

[4elise]

Even if it means that I can not enjoy blueberries, and have to learn to make an alternative to my blueberry cobbler…

… even Walmart has taken responsibility–and refuses to carry these blueberries.

The other great advantage of choosing to speak up about something like the blueberry farm issue (or fur) - a big store like Walmart wants it’s shopper to think it cares - so they won’t sell the blueberries because it has been in the news (and of course they can get some good PR) - and then like magic - change is made! This is the power of the individual acting making the world a better place - ta da!

 

[4elise]

k, we’ll each buy a pair and I’ll mail you my left boot, you mail me yours!

as far as those saddles, they are a joke. I’ve tried to ride in them. they are certified junk.

But I might hop… (this is a joke ) ---- but really I’m willing to make the trade off for long lasting for something not to be made of an animal, so even if leather won - I would still be happier with my non-leather items.

I defer to your knowledge of saddles… not something I have a need for so it doesn’t become part of my decisions.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Marfran:

I do not think it is a sin to *eat *or *wear *anything. However, when we become aware of a problem, an injustice, an abuse, or a cruelty that occurs in the manufacture/raising of our food or clothing, then I think that we have a responsibility to take a good look at the situation.

Last night on the news the story was about several farms (I don’t remember what state it was in), where undercover journalists went in and filmed illegal child labor. It was a blueberry farm. Children have to be 12 years old to work and they had children as young as 5 yeears old working, picking and carrying buckets. I will not be a part of this abuse of children. I will make sure that the blueberries that I buy do not come from this farm. I am going to research this story, because again, I did not catch the name of the farm or what state it was in, but I think it was a big operation.

OK, once again, let’s get to the crux of the matter. Do you believe it is a sin for me to wear fur or eat meat?

 

[4elise]

OK, once again, let’s get to the crux of the matter. Do you believe it is a sin for me to wear fur or eat meat?

I don’t see how you could have missed Marfran’s reply?

Marfran
I do not think it is a sin to eat or wear anything. However, when we become aware of a problem, an injustice, an abuse, or a cruelty that occurs in the manufacture/raising of our food or clothing, then I think that we have a responsibility to take a good look at the situation.

I think the point is that this is a matter of conscious - It is not a black and white answer - once I have taken in knowledge about any situation and believe that my actions contribute to something that is morally objectionable - then in good conscious I need to act accordingly - does that make sense?

 

[vz71]

As you see it.

more moral relativism

 

[vz71]

Well then, you have something to learn about alternatives to leather work boots!!! I have a pretty dirty job and need some well made boots. 4elise posted a link to non-leather work boots. If it’s something that you want to learn about, the information is out there, and the companies making these products exist. Information is power!

:clapping:

So I did a quick search.
The first company I came upon was a comapany called LaCrosse Footwear.
This company was listed in the “Vegan Guide to Leather Alternatives 2006 Edition”
First page highlights some hunting boots that have no scent.
They offer video demonstrations on hunting technique and tips.

The site even offers a flash video game based on hunting deer and ducks.

 

[Marfran]

:clapping:

So I did a quick search.
The first company I came upon was a comapany called LaCrosse Footwear.
This company was listed in the “Vegan Guide to Leather Alternatives 2006 Edition”
First page highlights some hunting boots that have no scent.
They offer video demonstrations on hunting technique and tips.

The site even offers a flash video game based on hunting deer and ducks.

FYI: LaCrosse Footwear is not a vegan company, though some of their products may be “vegan.” Any non-animal product is “vegan.” There are many manufacturers that make vegan items, without the specific intent of being “vegan.” People who want to purchase non-leather shoes or apparel, can find these from almost any manufacturer. The “Vegan Guide to Leather Alternatives…” just helps make some of the searching easier. I can walk into any regular store and ferret out the “vegan” items that are not labeled as such–by reading the ingredient label or the content label.

LaCrosse is a really expensive brand too. Seems like a lot of hunters want non-scent neoprene waterproof boots.

Thanks for your research vz71!!!

 

[vz71]

FYI: LaCrosse Footwear is not a vegan company, though some of their products may be “vegan.” Any non-animal product is “vegan.”

Quite true. HOWEVER…
A fair amount of time and effort here on this thread has been spent upon the sources of such materials. A lot of people are concerned with more then what is in the product, but what exactly was involved in the makeup of this product.
And yet, it would appear that the “Vegan Guide to Leather Alternatives 2006 Edition” does not at all concern itself with product origins, just product makeup.

And I am forced to wonder if the morality people invoke in a vegan lifestyle based upon where the products come from is simply a front.

LaCrosse is a really expensive brand too. Seems like a lot of hunters want non-scent neoprene waterproof boots.

Well, let’s not make conjecture as to the success of their marketing strategy.
There may be a lot, there may not be.
It would make sense that scentless footwear would be easier made from artificial materials, but without true numbers to work with, all we have is a company that has a marketing strategy that caters to hunters.

Thanks for your research vz71!!!

No problem.
Were you beginning to suspect I paid no attention to the links people post?

Just because I say ‘Do your own homework’ does not mean I do not scan through. It simply means that I am not going to support your argument for you.

 

[4elise]

:clapping:

So I did a quick search.
The first company I came upon was a comapany called LaCrosse Footwear.
This company was listed in the “Vegan Guide to Leather Alternatives 2006 Edition”
First page highlights some hunting boots that have no scent.
They offer video demonstrations on hunting technique and tips.

The site even offers a flash video game based on hunting deer and ducks.

This certainly seems inconsistent - but then again capitalism makes strange bed fellows.
Except - some may only object to factory farming - and feel that hunting is justifiable.

 

[bigfootbob]

exactly! I’m giggling my butt off here trying to picture farmers, ranchers, cowboys, construction workers, welders, etc. in littly shiny vinyl boots…or little cotton gloves…

I try to wear what’s best for the job. If I had synthetic boots they would have melted right off my feet this more than once this year.

 

[Marfran]

No problem.
Were you beginning to suspect I paid no attention to the links people post?

Yes, and I am so proud of you!!! You *are *paying attention!!! And I am not pulling your funny bone!!! If they listed those boots in a “vegan” search that is surprising, but I think that the LaCrosse company is a shoe company that markets to outdoors people of all sports. We have a ski/camping/hiking shop out here that carries them (LaCrosse footwear), that does not really cater to hunters (no blaze orange items in the store).

Actually (and I don’t have the stats in front of me so anyone is free to correct me), I believe that in the US, only 8% of the population hunts. So hunting apparel would actually be a niche market.

This certainly seems inconsistent - but then again capitalism makes strange bed fellows.
Except - some may only object to factory farming - and feel that hunting is justifiable.

 

[empacae]

Mmmmmm… elk ribs.

Mmmmmm… venisen

mmmmmm… Moose, bear and bison burgers

Top of the food chain here.

Would still like to try rabbit.

Canadian, and proud of it.

emp

 

[severus68]

Mmmmmm… elk ribs.

Mmmmmm… venisen

mmmmmm… Moose, bear and bison burgers

Top of the food chain here.

Would still like to try rabbit.

Canadian, and proud of it.

emp

??? Are you on the wrong thread? This thread is about the Ethics of Fur.