Ethics of using religious items manufactured/sold by illicit religious

  • Thread starter Thread starter HonoraDominum
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

HonoraDominum

Guest
In speaking with a nun wanting to learn basic Gregorian Chant, but not being able to find a CD with women chanting, I went to Amazon to surprise her with a CD that I had in my collection and listen to frequently. However, when reading the information about the CD, the phrase “Traditional Nuns” caught my eye. In researching the group behind the CD, I discovered that the nuns belonged to the Society of St. Pius V, a sedevacantist group.

So my question is: Is it sinful to own works that are in and of themselves not sinful, but created by groups in schism? This CD is one example, but I can also think of another - the 1962 missal printed by Angelus Press (SSPX). There’s also a group of Carmelite nuns in Colorado that are known sedes, and they produce basic Catholic sacramentals like rosaries and scapulars. Is it sinful to own them?

In thinking about this, it’s one of those things where I have a very hard time seeing the line. Is it sinful to buy Yoplait in October when they are supporting Susan G. Komen? Is it sinful to shop at a store that sells it? Is it sinful to shop at a store who has a pharmacy, and which pharmacy sells contraceptives? And if so, can I never shop at Target or Walmart again? Is it sinful to eat at a restaurant owned by a known transgendered? Or at a restaurant whose clientele is predominantly LGBT? That cuts out two of my favorite restaurants in Dallas. Is it sinful to own CD’s of people living morally sinful lifestyles (pretty much anyone in the Top 40, “Out” singers, etc)? Is it any less sinful than owning a sede Gregorian Chant CD? Or does it all offend God?

But on the other side, which business does not have sinners that work with them? How many big companies do not have insurance that supports “domestic partners” or that does not force employers to pay into a system that includes birth control? How many large technology companies produce their wares outside of the standard system that drastically overworks and underpays the third world employees who mine for the minerals and assemble the gadgets? And who has access to all local businesses with Christian shops and grocery stores that do not sell items that contribute to mortal sin? If we all strove to shop only in those types of establishments, there’d be a lot of hungry and naked Catholics around.

In short, at what point does supporting a business become a sin due to the nature of the owners, the manufacturers or the clientele?
 
I’ve been wondering about this sort of thing, too, becuase I have green scapulars sent to me by Father Gruner’s organization and I’ve been wondering if it’s okay to use them or if maybe even I should get rid of them, which is further complicated, I would think, by the question of whether they have been blessed or not, which I don’t know. Also, if it was Fr. Gruner who might have “blessed” them, is this even possible if he has been suspended as a priest? Is a priest in that position still able to bless objects?
If anyone can answer any of my questions, also, thank you.
 
Okay, I guess my question is a little different from most of yours, HonoraDominum. Sorry, I had only read the beginning of your post when I made mine. I had just read up to the part about the CD’s and maybe to the part about the scapulars.
 
OP, have you considered orthodox Judaism as a religious alternative? Somehow I feel you would be at home! 🙂
 
HonoraDominum said:
In speaking with a nun wanting to learn basic Gregorian Chant, but not being able to find a CD with women chanting, I went to Amazon to surprise her with a CD that I had in my collection and listen to frequently. However, when reading the information about the CD, the phrase “Traditional Nuns” caught my eye. In researching the group behind the CD, I discovered that the nuns belonged to the Society of St. Pius V, a sedevacantist group.

So my question is: Is it sinful to own works that are in and of themselves not sinful, but created by groups in schism? This CD is one example, but I can also think of another - the 1962 missal printed by Angelus Press (SSPX). There’s also a group of Carmelite nuns in Colorado that are known sedes, and they produce basic Catholic sacramentals like rosaries and scapulars. Is it sinful to own them?

In thinking about this, it’s one of those things where I have a very hard time seeing the line. Is it sinful to buy Yoplait in October when they are supporting Susan G. Komen? Is it sinful to shop at a store that sells it? Is it sinful to shop at a store who has a pharmacy, and which pharmacy sells contraceptives? And if so, can I never shop at Target or Walmart again? Is it sinful to eat at a restaurant owned by a known transgendered? Or at a restaurant whose clientele is predominantly LGBT? That cuts out two of my favorite restaurants in Dallas. Is it sinful to own CD’s of people living morally sinful lifestyles (pretty much anyone in the Top 40, “Out” singers, etc)? Is it any less sinful than owning a sede Gregorian Chant CD? Or does it all offend God?

But on the other side, which business does not have sinners that work with them? How many big companies do not have insurance that supports “domestic partners” or that does not force employers to pay into a system that includes birth control? How many large technology companies produce their wares outside of the standard system that drastically overworks and underpays the third world employees who mine for the minerals and assemble the gadgets? And who has access to all local businesses with Christian shops and grocery stores that do not sell items that contribute to mortal sin? If we all strove to shop only in those types of establishments, there’d be a lot of hungry and naked Catholics around.

In short, at what point does supporting a business become a sin due to the nature of the owners, the manufacturers or the clientele?
Click to expand...
This is a really good post. I’ve been wondering the same thing. The very computer/laptop/smartphone we’re all using to post on this forum was made in a place where they place suicide nets to keep their slave labor from jumping out the window. Meanwhile the US company that outsources them continues to make millions choosing to ignore their plight. They all do this. Apple is one of the worst offenders. How do we as Catholics justify using these products? Most products are made overseas by sweatshops many of which do use & abuse children.
 
It is my humble opinion there is nothing sinful about it. You are using the CDs to give glory to God. It is not a candle or talisman from a voodoo store or other witchcraft store. Would it make you feel better to bring it to church and have your priest bless it? I’m not being sarcastic. If that would bring you peace then do so.
 
First I’d like to point out that the Society of Saint Pius X is NOT sedevacantist. Mel Gibson is, but he’s a nutter. SSPX recognizes the authority of the pope. They are in an unprecedented position with the Church not consistent with outright schism and currently in talks with Rome to normalize their position with the Church.

I think looking too far into these things is scrupulous. I mean, if it’s something obvious like buying Rosaries from United Satanists for World Death, I wouldn’t support that. Part of being a shrewd consumer is knowing who you’re buying from and whether that’s a strong reason to refuse to support them. I wouldn’t personally boycott a restaurant owned by an LGBT person, because that really shouldn’t have any effect on how they cook. I would raise an eyebrow about buying religiously-pertinent items from someone obviously and stubbornly in error, especially if they throw around the title ‘Catholic.’ That implies they are in line with Catholic teaching, and if they’re not, can I trust what they have to say about Catholicism?

But as far as refusing to patronize a person’s business on account of their being a sinner, or having sinners as clients, that’s hypocritical as well as impossible. We’re all sinners, in different positions of repentance. It does not show the charity of Christ to snub people in a state of sin. But one should be knowledgeable about when your custom is directly funding anti-Catholic activities. For example, we make it a point (yeah, a little bit spitefully) to avoid buying anything with pink on it during Breast Cancer Hysteria Month.

As far as the CD, I’d be wary (if it was a schismatic group (ie Fatima Movement loonies)) if I didn’t trust the source. In a case like this, you can be pretty confident that the content is going to be accurate and won’t include weird stuff contrary to the faith just by the nature of the SSPX–if it was okay for the last thousand years, they’re going to preserve that as it is (ie Gregorian chant, 1962 Missal)–they won’t edit to put anything in there that hasn’t been okayed by the Church for a thousand or so years already.

I’m repeating myself I think. I’ve had a beer, I’m listening to MeatLoaf, and having a little trouble paying attention. So in short, be wary, but not paranoid. 😃
 
maltmom said:
It is my humble opinion there is nothing sinful about it. You are using the CDs to give glory to God. It is not a candle or talisman from a voodoo store or other witchcraft store. Would it make you feel better to bring it to church and have your priest bless it? I’m not being sarcastic. If that would bring you peace then do so.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Honora,
If God is going to be offended by your purchase, you are implying God wants you to chastise these people for their beliefs, which you accomplish by not engaging them in speech or commerce.

Christ was offended when we did not love our neighbor. He clearly condemned the Pharisees for being careful to appear righteous on the outside, while neglecting what was inside.
“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in…

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these things ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee….” (Matthew 23:13, 23:23-26)
Click to expand...
We must all remember to not act as the Pharisees 👍
 
Let me make sure I understand what is being said or suggested.
((By the way, I totally condemn Sedevacantism, today, as heretical and inaccurate)).

We won’t buy a CD of hymns from sedevacantist nuns because we might
give a few percent of income to them from the Purchase of their CD,
but we do act without Sin
if we buy a CD by (apostate Catholic singer) Madonna, (heretical catholic singer)
Sinead O’Connor,
morally questionable CDs by the Red Hot Chili Peppers,
CDs by Elton John (who uses his income in part to promote the gay lifestyle).

We can buy all these others,
but by all means, run like bats out of hell from Hymn CDs by sedevacantist nuns
or by singers affiliated with the SSPX, who, at least, believe the same DOCTRINES
we do???

Hmmmmmmm…
 
By the way, if we are going to avoid the CDs by the sede nuns for fear of supporting Evil,

Please kindly go to your church bookshop or item stand in the back,
lift up the lovely statues you are buying, and kindly
note the sticker MADE IN CHINA on the bottom.
Also note all your newer Orthodox Roman Catholic books, on the inside of the title page,
that most of them are “Printed in the People’s Republic of China.”

Kindly tell me why we are even TOLERATING the selling, let alone ourselves purchasing,
these products, when they could be made HERE, by Catholic AMERICANS, in relative
FREEDOM ???

This (the P.R.C.) is a country that persecutes the living daylights out of REAL Catholics,
and uses SLAVE LABOR to make those “Catholic” sacramentals.
 
adopted_heir said:
First I’d like to point out that the Society of Saint Pius X is NOT sedevacantist. Mel Gibson is, but he’s a nutter. SSPX recognizes the authority of the pope. They are in an unprecedented position with the Church not consistent with outright schism and currently in talks with Rome to normalize their position with the Church.
Click to expand...
OP actually referred to the SSPV, which is a sedevacantist group that split from the SSPX. They do hold that the Chair of Peter is not occupied by a “valid” pope.

On a side note, I had no idea Mel was a sede too. Really?? Poor bloke.
 
I don’t think I can answer your question, as I’m struggling with that same dilemma myself. I think I may know what order you’re talking about though… The Daughters of Mary? I was exploring their website and getting really interested in them (I’m discerning about a vocation to the religious life) until I researched their founder and learned he started the sedevacantist group SSPV.

daughtersofmary.net/daughtersofmary.php

I’m on the fence about buying their music, but some of it is on the internet and it’s sooo beautiful. Check this out: youtu.be/yYxyiUB1L0s
This has always been one of my favorite hymns, but their version is particularly haunting. I can’t stop listening to it! 🙂
 
Song_Sparrow said:
I’ve been wondering about this sort of thing, too, becuase I have green scapulars sent to me by Father Gruner’s organization and I’ve been wondering if it’s okay to use them or if maybe even I should get rid of them, which is further complicated, I would think, by the question of whether they have been blessed or not, which I don’t know. Also, if it was Fr. Gruner who might have “blessed” them, is this even possible if he has been suspended as a priest? Is a priest in that position still able to bless objects?
If anyone can answer any of my questions, also, thank you.
Click to expand...
IMHO, when in doubt if an item has been blessed or not, always best to err on the side of caution and bury it if you don’t want to use it for whatever reason…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top